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Post by Nathan1 on Jun 21, 2022 3:26:35 GMT
1) Which Year did the 2x2s become anti-Trinity; Jesus is NOT God believers?
professing.proboards.com/thread/31498/which-year-2x2s-trinity-believers?page=1&scrollTo=1013821
Book of Revelation Explained
Revelation is first and foremost a revelation about Jesus Christ (1:1). The book depicts Him as the risen, glorified Son of God ministering among the churches (1:1). As "The faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth" (1:5); As "the Alpha and the Omega" (1:8); As the one "who is and who was and who is the come, the Almighty" (1:8);
www.bible-studys.org/Discoverrevelation.com/Book%20of%20Revelation%20Explained.html
The Deity of Christ
In addition to Jesus’ specific claims about Himself, His disciples also acknowledged the deity of Christ. They claimed that Jesus had the right to forgive sins—something only God can do—as it is God who is offended by sin (Acts 5:31; Colossians 3:13; Psalm 130:4; Jeremiah 31:34). In close connection with this last claim, Jesus is also said to be the one who will “judge the living and the dead” (2 Timothy 4:1). Thomas cried out to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28). Paul calls Jesus “great God and Savior” (Titus 2:13) and points out that prior to His incarnation Jesus existed in the “form of God” (Philippians 2:5-8).
God the Father says regarding Jesus: “Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever” (Hebrews 1:8). John states that “in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word [Jesus] was God” (John 1:1). Examples of Scriptures that teach the deity of Christ are many (see Revelation 1:17, 2:8, 22:13; 1 Corinthians 10:4; 1 Peter 2:6-8; Psalm 18:2, 95:1; 1 Peter 5:4; Hebrews 13:20), but even one of these is enough to show that Christ was considered to be God by His followers.
Jesus is also given titles that are unique to YHWH (the formal name of God) in the Old Testament. The Old Testament title “redeemer” (Psalm 130:7; Hosea 13:14) is used of Jesus in the New Testament (Titus 2:13; Revelation 5:9). Jesus is called Immanuel—“God with us”—in Matthew 1. In Zechariah 12:10, it is YHWH who says, “They will look on me, the one they have pierced.”
But the New Testament applies this to Jesus’ crucifixion (John 19:37; Revelation 1:7). If it is YHWH who is pierced and looked upon, and Jesus was the one pierced and looked upon, then Jesus is YHWH. Paul interprets Isaiah 45:22-23 as applying to Jesus in Philippians 2:10-11. Further, Jesus’ name is used alongside God’s in prayer “Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ” (Galatians 1:3; Ephesians 1:2). This would be blasphemy if Christ were not deity. The name of Jesus appears with God’s in Jesus’ commanded to baptize “in the name [singular] of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19; see also 2 Corinthians 13:14).
Actions that can be accomplished only by God are credited to Jesus. Jesus not only raised the dead (John 5:21, 11:38-44) and forgave sins (Acts 5:31, 13:38), He created and sustains the universe (John 1:2; Colossians 1:16-17). This becomes even clearer when one considers YHWH said He was alone during creation (Isaiah 44:24). Further, Christ possesses attributes that only deity can have: eternality (John 8:58), omnipresence (Matthew 18:20, 28:20), omniscience (Matthew 16:21), and omnipotence (John 11:38-44).
Now, it is one thing to claim to be God or to fool someone into believing it is true, and something else entirely to prove it to be so. Christ offered many miracles as proof of His claim to deity. Just a few of Jesus’ miracles include turning water to wine (John 2:7), walking on water (Matthew 14:25), multiplying physical objects (John 6:11), healing the blind (John 9:7), the lame (Mark 2:3), and the sick (Matthew 9:35; Mark 1:40-42), and even raising people from the dead (John 11:43-44; Luke 7:11-15; Mark 5:35). Moreover, Christ Himself rose from the dead. Far from the so-called dying and rising gods of pagan mythology, nothing like the resurrection is seriously claimed by other religions, and no other claim has as much extra-scriptural confirmation.
In conclusion, Christ claimed He was YHWH, that He was deity (not just “a god” but the one true God); His followers (Jews who would have been terrified of idolatry) believed Him and referred to Him as God. Christ proved His claims to deity through miracles, including the world-altering resurrection. No other hypothesis can explain these facts. Yes, the deity of Christ is biblical.
www.gotquestions.org/deity-of-Christ.html
Nathan wrote: Genesis 1:26 God/Elohim/Plural said, "Let US create man in OUR image and in OUR Likeness." and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
1) Ram wrote: The Bible say HE Nathan....not THEY!
2) Dmg wrote to Ram: But Ram! Then who was god talking to when God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:"
The Trinity is one Godhead existing in three Persons. Understand that this is not in any way suggesting three Gods. Keep in mind when studying this subject that the word “Trinity” is not found in Scripture. This is a term that is used to attempt to describe the Triune God—three coexistent, co-eternal Persons who are God.
Of real importance is that the concept represented by the word “Trinity” does exist in Scripture. The following is what God’s Word says about the Trinity:
www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html
3) RossB wrote on TMB 2020
A U.S. 2x2 worker apparently spoke at a Sydney convention two years ago about the Holy Spirit being the third person of the Godhead and David Saunders apparently referred to Jesus as the great "I am" at this year's Sydney Convention. Generally, it is ridiculed as a Catholic doctrine... whereas in reality it is a core Christian doctrine.
~~ Jesus is also given titles that are unique to YHWH (the formal name of God) in the Old Testament. The Old Testament title “redeemer” (Psalm 130:7; Hosea 13:14) is used of Jesus in the New Testament (Titus 2:13; Revelation 5:9). Jesus is called Immanuel—“God with us”—in Matthew 1. In Zechariah 12:10, it is YHWH who says, “They will look on me, the one they have pierced.”
www.gotquestions.org/I-AM.html
~~ Jesus The Great " I AM " God from the Dead Sea Scrolls
I, the Lord God of creation, who was and who is and who shall always be the one true God, the mind, the very center of the Universe, speaks to your own heart. The words that I have spoken to my prophets Moses and others were that he should recognize that the great “I Am.” filled his being with the power and the authority to open his mouth in my name and to proclaim his words as a living words that I placed deeply within him.
I have in times past spoken through the mouths of my prophets and then through the mouths of my apostles. Now the times and seasons are approaching, as are the reasons, when my words shall again be spoken by my obedient prophets and apostles. Their words shall be my words and their deeds that shall be my deeds, because I have spoken this thing before the World was ever formed. Those words that I now speak shall be hidden for a season and then shall be revealed in the last times
I shall cause the Earth to quake and the sunlight, which represents the new dawning, shall shine brightly upon those who are appointed to carry my words from the darkness of the caves to the bright sunlight of my new revelation to all mankind ... and mankind shall read and they shall study those words and they shall find that they are the words that will cause an awakening to occur in the minds of mankind.
It has been said in times past that I am in the wind and I am in the fire and I am into the waters. These words are not true. The truth of this matter is that I am the wind. I am the fire. I am the water. I am in everything and in everything that exists. When you touch the mountain, you touch me. When you are touching the water, you are touching me. When you touch the fire, you are touching me. I am the Lord of the Universe and there is not one place that I am not. I am not in the flowers, the plants, the fruit of the land, but I am the flowers. I am the plants. I am the fruit of the land. Mankind will climb into the heavens. I am not in the heavenly, but I am the heavenly. When I created man from the dust of the Earth, I was the dust of the Earth and I was and am the breath of life that causes mankind to live.
Say not that the Lord your God is in the heavens or on the Earth. I am the heavens and I am the Earth. Now you have received the true revelation of my word, which was spoken to you in times past. The word said that I am everywhere present. I am omnipresent. I am not part of myself, but rather I am the whole of the Universe. Wherever you look, wherever you come or go, whatever you do or say, I am there in the midst of you because I am not only in, but rather I am you!
It shall be written in the future that man is the universe. I say to you that I do not dwell in the universe of mankind, but I am that Universe of Mankind, and there is no separation whatsoever. These words that I have spoken to you at this time and in this place are that you might believe the truth of the message that as my Father is one with me so is the Spirit one with me. Now I am likewise in you and you are in me and that means I am one and you are with me. Have I not spoken these words in the past that I am in you and you are in me? (John 17:21) Jesus said, " That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." Let this testimony be with you forever and forever, as we together traverse the streets of that sojourn from dawn to night. Be at peace and look deeply within yourself and you will find me.
Again I have spoken the words in the past that you are indeed gods. I am your God. This revelation is of utmost importance and you must believe the whole truth as I have spoken it in your pure hearing. I say to you, allow the vibrations of your spirit, your inner ear, be unstopped and hear what the Spirit says to you at this hour. I am the center of your universe, because I am the whole of your universe. Know this, for this is the word of the living God, the Creator of all things which are. In time and seasons to come this word will be revealed to you and you shall behold the brightness of this truth, and you shall say, “This is the light for which I have long awaited. This is the revelation that will hold and maintain me through every experience of life.”
Beware, there are those who would destroy this truth, but they shall not be able to destroy this truth because the truth abides in you and you abide in the truth. I have spoken in times past. And I have said that the truth shall cause many to walk in freedom, out of darkness and satanic bondage. And they shall have no further influence or rule over you. I have spoken these truths by the words of my lips and these words are true. Accept them and you shall live in peace, in joy and in victory over all things. Amen!
You are invited to share this information with others, but kindly acknowledge copyright and keep this article intact.
© Dr. Frank E. Stranges
www.nextagemission.com/ST/ST_TheGreatIAm_EN.html
The Great "I AM" Two pages from the Dead Sea Scrolls
© Julie Ann Stranges
www.nicufo.org/videos.htm
~~ Nathan1: THERE has ALWAYS been Jesus 2x2 apostles/workers of Jesus Christ in EVERY Generation according to the teachings of Jesus. Gap in history but with God and Christ there will be NO GAP! As long there are God's people on earth Jesus 2x2 New Testament ministry will guide, help to feed and protect the Lambs and sheep of God from Satan's onslaught. Read Rev. Chapters 11 and 12.
Jesus foretold the future of His New Testament True Church and Bride through the centuries! and to the time of His 2nd coming. It could be anytime now.
1) Jesus said to Peter and the apostles in Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
2) Jesus said in Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
3) Matthew 28:16-20 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
4) Jesus said in Acts 1:6-8 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
5) Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31 “Immediately after the distress of those days “the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
6) Gamaliel said in Acts 5:38-41 And now I say unto you/Pharisees, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God. And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.
The gospel of 2x2 workers came to Westcoast of USA 1903 and the island of Guam 1966.
1) Cherie Kropp wrote: Hi Nate, you wrote this interesting info earlier: "Yes, most of the visiting workers and the friends come to Guam are taken to the tree on Guam University campus Lawn where Leo S. and Larry T. had the Bible studies for the college students, teachers. It was under that certain TREE I received my island of Patmos experienced! Revelation from God and Christ Truth and Way on earth."
Can you tell me the year the Workers first went to Guam and who they were? Was it Leo Stancliff and Larry Taylor? I'm looking for a written account of when the workers first went to Guam. Have you ever seen one? Thanks in advance!
professing.proboards.com/thread/30645/nathan-re-guam
William Irvine was baptized by Charlie Ross, a 2x2 worker
1) 1chinesewhispers wrote 12/1/20
Charlie Ross baptized William Irvine in the very very early days. My great uncle stopped being a worker around 1907 or so, he ended up in Canada and my grandma was his sister. Charlie Ross came from Ireland, the first step he took in North America was in South Dakota. Then Gimli, Manitoba then, Brandon, Manitoba again and that is where he met his wife from Iceland.
Charlie Ross entered the work in 1905 per the 1905 Workers list.
tellingthetruth.info/workers_lists/wrkr1905.php
William Irvine he was baptized by Charlie Ross who was a 2x2 worker ! He passed away in family home in 1959.
** Nathan1: Thanks, I believe your great uncle baptized William Irvine after he became a 2x2 worker. About 15 yrs ago, I met Grace B. a 2x2 from South Dakota, she had notes of William Irvine baptized by the workers. Now, I know it was your great uncle Charlie Ross, who baptized William Irvine. Grace B. has a grand daughter, who is in the work.
*** William Irvine was a Presbyterian growing up, and he was SAVED in the Faith mission already then WHY, did he want or feel the need to be baptized again by your great uncle who was a 2x2 worker? Did all of the early days workers from other denomination churches baptized again like William Irvine had done? So, did William Irvine and the rest of the early days workers felt theirs former faith and WI Presbyterian baptism were invalid, I wonder.
Just like today, those who came out of RCC and Protestant denominations want to rebaptize by the workers. That was how I felt and moved by God for the need to rebaptize by the 2x2 workers, I had been baptized by our Pentecostal preacher a year before I met the 2x2 workers in 1978.
professing.proboards.com/thread/30454/election?page=40
~~~ In 2001, I (NathanB) wrote to George Gittens, a senior brother worker, asking him to share with me about William Irvine's sister story which he heard from Robert Darling, a 1905 worker from the UK.
12/28/2001
Hi Nathan,
Yours was of great interest. Here is a little outline of what Robert Darling (worker in 1905) told me. I also talked to some of the friends who had witnessed William Irvine's baptism in the Truth. William Irvine had been a member and a preacher of the Faith Mission but he disregarded this. He preached some for the Faith Mission, but renounced it upon hearing the Truth. Robert Darling knew William and also the folks he heard first.
William Irvine's sister came from Scotland and went to work in someone's house on a farm in Ireland. When Sunday morning she came into a room, was set up for worship. The folks of the home said they had worship service in their home every Sunday A.M. and a few others came. William's sister wanted to know how this started? The folks said their ancestors had heard homeless preachers somewhere near Switzerland and in the Alps.
They embraced the faith, and a church meeting was started in their home by these homeless preachers. When the folks had to leave that area due to persecutions, and came to Ireland, they continued the service in their home. William's sister was religious (Presbyterian), but dissatisfied and seeking God for truth, so she embraces this faith, as was convicted it was the true way of God. She later returned to her homeland and told her brother William Irvine, who was extremely interested, as he was dissatisfied with the Church. He and his sister came to visit with these folks, and upon hearing their testimony, recognized it as scriptural and was also convicted it was God's true way. He later had his calling by the Spirit of God to go into the harvest field as Jesus taught his disciples. Leaving all and going out by faith.
Later, I (George Gittins) talked to Garret Hughes (an older worker) whose parents professed through William Irvine. He had mentioned something about Switzerland concerning Truth being preserved. Garrett said if Robert Darling told you this, it must be true, as he was there and knew first hand how this happened. I (George Gittins) talked to old Mr. Holland who was nearly 100 years old, and his folks had told him the same as Robert Darling related. We are glad for this first hand account, not that it matters so much, for Jesus said by their fruits you should know it. When one has the fruit we need not worry so much about the tree and its origin. However, I found this most interesting.
Yours in Christ,
George Gittins
# 2) Hi Nathan,
While staying in our home a few days in November, 2005, George Gittins, a senior Manitoba worker told us the following story. One year in the early 1970s George was in charge of facilities at the Calloway, Nebraska convention. At about 3:00 a.m. one night during the convention the wind got up and George decided to get out of bed and make sure the big meeting tent was properly tied down to withstand the gale.
After he had secured the tent and was about to head back to bed he happened to notice someone walking down the road in the dark. As the figure approached, George recognized the person to be Robert Darling, one of the visiting workers. (The first known workers' list indicates Rob Darling he went into the ministry in 1905.) George decided to start whistling as he did not want to scare the poor man. When they connected, George asked Robert if everything was okay, to which he replied in the affirmative. Robert told him that often when he can't sleep at night he gets up and goes for a walk.
George said to him "I bet you are missing a good cup of tea. I was recently sent some good Red Rose tea from Canada, so let's go over to the cook house and I'll make you a good cup of tea." Robert readily agreed. So between 3:00 and 4:00 a.m. during the middle of convention the two men sat in the cook house drinking tea made the proper way (start with fresh water, don't boil it too long, heat the pot first etc.). During the course of their impromptu visit, Robert talked about the early days.
George told Robert that he did not have any concerns about the beginnings of our faith back in Ireland, but wondered if he would tell him about it. Without hesitation, Robert proceeded to do so. He told George that William Irvine heard the gospel through his sister who was working as a domestic helper for a family who had moved to Ireland from the Alps region of Germany/Switzerland/France= The Waldenses some years earlier because of religious persecution. (There may have been other families who had moved to Ireland as well and were in fellowship with the family for whom William Irvine's sister worked.)
In any event, this family told William's sister about their faith and the true ministry, and apparently she attended fellowship meetings in their home. After making her choice she got in touch with her brother, William, who was preaching for the Faith Mission in Ireland. He came and met these folks and after hearing the gospel from them, also made his choice and was baptized. William then left the Faith Mission and went out into the ministry as the first modern day worker. (George also told us that he had heard George Walker say that we owed a lot to William Irvine because he was the first worker in modern times to sell everything and go out on faith to preach the gospel.)
The following day George went to see Garret Hughes who was also at the convention and told him what Robert Darling had shared with him the night before. Garret's comment was words to the effect that Robert would know because he was there.
I suggested to George that this story should really be told because it seemed to add an important piece to the puzzle that had many folks here in North America and other places confused and bitter about the origins of our faith. George's comment was, "Yes, I agree it should be told. You can tell this story to whomever you wish."
I asked George about the family/s that Robert mentioned. What happened to them? Robert apparently told George that a number of their descendants had gone into the work and at the time of him telling the story, there were still a number in the ministry--I believe, in North America. Robert also told George that the family/s in question did not want their name/s spread around and being given public credit/notoriety for the revival of the faith at the turn of the century. (Why, George was not sure. Perhaps they did not want the undue attention.) So George did not pursue finding out their name/s and, I presume, at the time the names were incidental to Robert's very interesting story. Robert did tell George, however, that he knew the family concerned and had been in their home.
In a later discussion George said that it was certainly scriptural for William Irvine and his sister to profess and be baptized through an elder. He referred to Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts.
George also told us that some years ago when he and Calvin Casselman (now deceased) were together in BC, Cornelius Jaenen, the author of "The Apostles' Doctrine and Fellowship", had come to visit them (Cornelius had professed through Calvin). George used the occasion to tell Cornelius what Robert Darling had told him about the early days. Cornelius' response was that he was not surprised because Robert's story was consistent with things he had heard over the years and come across in his research.
Raymond G. Reed, December, 2005
The author of the Seldom gate book
Did William Irvine's hear it from one of his sisters about Jesus apostolic faith and ministry? Sept 27, 2009, Jesse_Lackman wrote: I noticed this Impartial Reporter article mentioned about William Irvine's sister.
From: The Impartial article Newspaper.
So that in other words derivative or successive Christianity is not re-established though William Irvine or Edward Cooney only. This is all the more remarkable and contradictory since William Irvine has a great difficulty to determine his own Spiritual Father and he professedly the great grandfather of all! Some say it was the Rev. John Mc'Neill; some say William Irvine's sister was the means of spiritual life to him, ...
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c4/Article.png
Jesse J. wrote: So the story of Irvine's sister's involvement goes back to 1910 in the United Kingdom.
Here is the list of William Irvine and 4 Faith Mission workers/preachers who became 2x2 workers.
~~~ Faith Mission's Bright Words 13th Annual Report Nov/Dec 1899.
Mr. John and Mrs. Govan, in Scotland, founded the Faith Mission 1886. The Faith Mission is a Protestant evangelical movement that works in neglected rural communities. Our 13th year with the total of 65 workers (preachers) were as follows on their list:
15) William Irvine 6/14/1895
17) John Kelly 5/27/1896
22) Harry O. M'Neary 1/10/1897
36) Joe Burns 1/8/1898
48) 14th Annual report May Carroll 11/19/ 1899.
Collected posts on Feb 28, 2019 Christiansburg (2x2/ex-worker) Wrote:
I personally had never heard of the Waldensians until about 10 years ago. Our ministry is so different that I wondered if there were others who ever tried it before 1898.
That is when I read about that group, a recent visit to their museum and personal conversations with them revealed that they seemed to change from what they had done earlier as a 2x2 group. I asked why they had changed and was told that they knew they had to give up some of their earlier ideas in order to survive. As you know they merged with the Presbyterians. (notes: William Irvine and his family was raised as a Presbyterians).
None of the workers I knew years ago ever spoke of the Waldensians. Maybe they knew. Maybe they didn't. I just don't know.
If you research the Waldenses you will find a treasure trove of information of what you ask about. I studied about them several years ago got a book from one of their museums in North Carolina. There is a historical record of them written by (Rev.) John Hons published in 1982 -- second edition. It is a long but detailed (and documented) record of their survival from the 1st century on. They migrated from central Italy to northwest Italy then into the Alps and on to Switzerland. They were a repressed, hunted down and murdered group of people. The Romans Catholic Church were threatened by them and sought to eliminate them. A few survived and hid in Switzerland. They record a record of their homeless ministry, meetings in the home. Too much to detail here.
When I visited their museum it was housed in a Presbyterian Church. I told the minister there who gave us a guided tour that I knew their history and then ask why they gave up on following their past way of doing things. His words "...We had to release those ideas and merge with the Presbyterian Church in order to survive". I told him that because of that they had not survived. He agreed.
The museum is located in Vale, NC. When the King James 1611 Bible was being translated it is believed that remnants of the Waldenses' Bible records may have been used.
There is another book written by one of our friends also "Apostles Doctrine and Fellowship" written by Dr. Cornelius Jaenen. He is well educated having graduated from a Canadian university with a degree in history. Mr. Jaenen went to Ethopia in the early 1950's to provide an open home for the workers. He is not there now but maybe returned to Canada. His book is still available on Amazon for about $50.00.
Cherie Kropp a former-2x2 posted segments of his book here in 2016, I believe. She provided her critique also on this website. Mr Jaenen attempts to trace Apostolic Succession back to the the first 12 Apostles. If you read the book you can make your own assumptions about that. I am satisfied well enough just to accept that what we have in our fellowship today as being as near to the NT ministry and fellowship as anything I know about. I have been professing for 63 years. I started going to meetings in 1956. I came out from the Methodist church in 1956. My grandparents were Catholic and Episcopalian on my mother's side. On my father's side they were Baptist. I know 100% what goes on there. I also know full well the challenges we face.
Jun 20, 2012
I was with a group of workers in 1963 in an eastern state when I was in the work. I heard the story about William Irvine and Eddie Cooney discussed between George Walker and the overseer of our state. Of course, both of these men were from Ireland and knew Eddie personally. George especially still had admiration for Eddie but there was a problem not with his revelation, but with his willingness to work together with others in the ministry.
The fellowship had grown so large world wide that there had to be some order and manage- was necessary. Eddie was not willing to work in unity with others so even though he was avoided he actually brought that on himself. It doesn't matter how great you become submission is still necessary.
I have always admired the story that we have about the earlier workers and those who gave an honest sacrifice. In spite of the book "The Secret Sect" it was no secret to many of us nor to many in our state. The question arose then, "Why talk about those who appeared to have failed when it was unedifying.
Someday I may tell my story even though I am no longer in the work. I have a very deep appreciation for those who are still there. I was there for eight years and enjoyed every year. My life was truly enriched because of that period of time in my life.
In 1963, Richmond Virginia, I personally heard George Walker and Charles Hughes talking about "The beginning of William Irvine and John Long's experience". Both men were deeply concerned not only about their own souls but what they witnessed in the religious world at that time. There was no shortage of religion as we have read. Many people had their own ideas and some were most definitely self serving. William Irvine and those around him were definitely moved initially with this thought "If it was done this way in the first century could we not do the same today.
William said to his friend John Long at the Faith Mission "Do you think we can do this today? (1897) George Walker said "It came into their hearts that this would be the right thing for them and they both realized it was a great step of faith. They were not moved with the idea of becoming a founder of anything. They were moved with feeling of trying to fulfill in their own generation what had been in the record for almost 2,000 years. I call that a revelation.
Now you can lay aside all the chatter about failures along the way, Irvine being one, and just take a good honest look at faith in trying to make that a part of our lives today - The life and teaching of Christ.
George Walker told us about 2 to 3 after Irvine and Long "Launched Forth" he met Willie Gill bearing the same message. George said he was going on 21 at the time and was moved by what these men had done and was moved to take the same step in faith. Both George & Charlie acknowledged that William lost the sincerity he had in the beginning and unfortunately found himself outside of the fellowship that had become such a valuable gift to our generation.
The discussion took place on special meeting rounds. George was a visiting worker at the time.
There were about 16 workers in the room. We all sat in silence and listened to the two of them. Of the 16 workers about 9 are dead and only two are still in the work. I was one of the 16 workers there. I don't recall a question being asked in reference to anyone in particular. They talked about how the gospel had moved out from Ireland. More specifically it centered around William Irvine and his inspiration to leave the Faith Mission and that he gave his sister credit for influencing him. As I mentioned the details of their conversation was not discussed but I'm sure whatever it was both George and Charlie knew. It would be nice to have those men back among us. I would ask a lot of questions.
George and Charlie did not discuss Robert Darling or George Gittins but only referred to William Irvine's sister. I was 23 when I heard this conversation but did not pickup on the names you mentioned. But as I mentioned I have not talked about the sister openly (until now) because it did not show up in anything that I read about him in the following years. These were the words Charlie used: "It came into her heart to tell William Irvine about her experience." He did not elaborate beyond that.
My suggestion was that history seems to show that there was an effort to follow the same pattern in different era of time. Both groups believed it was something that could be done. I think most Christian believers will feel that God has always had a people he could call his own in every age. I don't think we can pass judgment on how they become his people. I am glad that is left up to him. I suppose we will all see someday.
I deeply appreciate what those early men did. I am amazed.
Christiansburg
Nathan1 wrote: That is so awesome, Christianburg! Thanks, so much for the information and some of the early history of the 2x2. I first heard about the Vaudois/Waldenses when Jay W. and I were together as co-workers in North Bend, Oregon 1988-89.
There was a University church historian, who gave a lecture about the Vaudois/Waldenses and Peter Waldo in 1160 A.D. It was an amazing lecture to listen to her. A few months later, someone gave us the Pilgrim Church by Broadbent at Boring convention, and some of the workers Jay W. Randy R. and myself read the book in the car on our way to other conventions. We found out more information about the Vaudois history and Peter Waldo, the Frenchman who became follower of the Vaudois and his amazing 2x2 apostolic ministry up till the time he died.
After I left the work in 1993, I put a lot of time searching, studying and find all I could about the Vaudois history and their belief, from other historians and their own church historians. I was astonished of the information available on the Internet on the Vaudois, Albigenses, Poor men of Lyons/France or Peter Waldo and his followers in the 11th century.
Someone on TMB post the pilgrim church book by Broadbent and I am glad they did so others can read it for themselves. I had post many of their belief and teachings for 20 yrs.
Title: The Pilgrim Church
Author: E. H. Broadbent
Chapter V history of the Vaudois/Waldenses
This classic work demonstrates that the true heart of this amazing drama is not even recorded in church history books. Right from apostolic days there have always been little groups of persecuted believers who just wanted to follow the Lord. Written in an engaging style, this book will thrill your heart with the stories of unknown heroes of the faith.
It will spur you on to greater devotion to the Lord Jesus and a deeper concern for His suffering people in many countries today. Originally published in 1931, The Pilgrim Church is considered a modern classic. It provides a comprehensive history of the church from the apostolic age to the twentieth century through the prism of the New Testament church model.
gutenberg.net.au/ebooks10/1000351h.html
Pope John Paul in the year 2000 and Pope Francis in 2020 asked forgiveness on Monday for the Roman Catholic Church's "non-Christian and inhumane" treatment in the past of the Waldensians."
www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/28/pope-francis-waldensians_n_7644916.html?ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000055
~~ MANY interesting articles about the 2x2 group, the RCC, and the 40,000 plus Protestant denominations
web.archive.org/web/20160731005200/http://2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/
~~ Joe Kerr an ex 2x2-worker from 1903-1915, he left the 2x2 wrote in 1951 that he read the Pilgrim Church book.
JOE KERR was born in 1881 in Dumfriesshire, Wanlockhead, Scotland, and grew up in the small village of Philipstown. He was a convert of Ed Cooney and entered the work in 1902-1915. Joe was one of the eight pioneers of the work in South Africa in 1905, along with Alex Pearce, John Cavanagh, Wilson Reid, Mary Moodie, Martha Skerrit, Lilly Reid and Barbara Baxter.
In 1915, the same year Joe and Barbara married, another married couple was allowed to begin preaching. Perhaps Joe did not ask permission before his marriage took place. It is not known if Archie and Gladys left voluntarily. Archie and Joe and their wives joined the Plymouth Brethren. In his letter, Joe refers to E. H. Broadbent's book, "The Pilgrim Church." The author, Broadbent, was a Plymouth Brethren. Barbara died Feb. 24 1947, aged 64, and Joe died Dec. 17, 1966, aged 85, in Cape Town.
Joe Kerr wrote: "In the book, Broadbent's "Pilgrim Church," a book that is well worth reading, we learn that there have been people all down through the ages who have sought to walk as near to the truth of Scripture as they could. They were given different names and were badly persecuted."
www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_early/kerrjoe.php
1) On Cherie K. TTT website: She wrote William Irvine is the founder of the 2s2 church in 1897. Was William Irvine a Founder or a Finder/Leader of the 2x2 Church in 1897?
~~ Nathan1 wrote: William Irvine and John Long DID not start or having any thought of starting a 2x2 workers and friends church in 1897. In 1997 Telling the Truth website, owner Cherie Kropp ( a former member of 2x2 workers and friends church/group. Cherie parents had a 2x2 workers and friends convention ground in USA for many years. One brother had been a worker in Calf. USA for a few years). Cherie Kropp believed 100% that William Irvine started and founded the 2x2 church, in 1897 and that information is NOT correct. The name of Cherie's website is Telling the Truth, also known as TTT.
According to John Long, and the early workers recognized William Irvine as their leader NOT as their Founder, because he copied the 2x2 workers ministry from John G. Govan, the Founder of the Faith Mission going in pairs workers in 1886. I will point out as time goes on this time line William Irvine founding date 1897 as a Founder of the 2x2 is incorrect.
~~ Edward Cooney (1867-1960) 2x2 early days worker in (1901) wrote To Impartial Reporter 10/7/1909
1) Edward Cooney wrote, " We (2x2 workers) did NOT start this Jesus Way. It was started and planned by God before we were thought of, and we are earnestly contending for the faith once delivered to the Saints and trying to separate it from the tradition of men. There was in the day, William Irvine, upon whose heart God's Spirit worked to raise him up like the judges of old, to lead back those in Christendom to the TRUTH as it is in Jesus." ( By Patricia Roberts book page 43-45)
Edward Cooney wrote, "Undoubtedly God has called us and separated us to be His people in the beginning, and most prominent and most used in this calling out a people, William Irvine who at the time of being sent forth to be a prophet, saw more clearly than any of us that the revelation of the Father to each individual child of His is Christ would build His Church, and that the gates of HELL shall NOT prevail against it." (By Patricia Roberts Page 43-45)
Questions of C. A. Wiebush
Evangelical Lutheran Synod of Australia
Gawler, Australia.
April 23, 1931
TO: Mr. Willliam. J. Hughes, Tusmore (2x2 worker)
1. Would you kindly give me the origin and history of your organization?
Ans: The religious world has passed through many stages of apostasy and reformation, since Christ and His apostles established Christianity upon the earth, but we have no reason to think, nor right to say that God has not at all times been able to preserve a true seed in the world, a seed or people who have always looked beyond form or schism and creed back to the Way and Truth of Christ. Back to Christianity in its purity and simplicity, back to the living Christianity which was very much more than a creed, back to the Christlike humble sacrificing ministry as exemplified in the New Testament apostles, back to a Christianity which refused all conformity to the world.
But (perhaps as a sign that the world is nearing the return of the Lord to the earth) there has in recent years been a very real and distinct turning of the minds and hearts of men and women towards its simplicity and purity of early Christianity. This is undoubtedly attributable to what we may call the modernization of Christianity, the lack of clear unequivocal preaching of the Gospel of Christ, the tendency of holding only a head belief in Christ, instead of a faith which leads to true discipleship, questionable ways of raising money for religious work, flirtation with the world in its pleasures, sins and fashions, and other things which the Bible says would prevail in the last days.
The foundation and authorship of this movement cannot be attributed to any one man or number of men but is the result of reaching after Truth, during a number of years, of many men. Many no doubt have been unwilling for the sacrifice, when their minds were turned back to the lowly way of Christ, but others have been willing to sacrifice everything in their desire to get back to the simplicity and sincerity of the early Christianity and to lead others to do likewise.
This is our aim--it is heartily welcomed by some but hated by others. This is as simply as I can put the case although our desire to follow the one Lord and to preach his Gospel binds us into a very real fellowship, we have either any headquarters on earth nor a Headman. Our preachers are all on the same level (as Christ said they should be) and so we desire to be known only as Christians or followers of Christ.
www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_early/hughes_willie.php
George Walker, 2x2 worker (1899) wrote: To the American Selective service in 1942
We take this opportunity to state that during the closing years of people in British Isles and in America were exercised in heart and mind, through their study of the Scriptures, in regard to the methods of preaching and worship in the several churches of which they were members. They were deeply concerned about the spiritual things, and became fully convinced that there should be a Return! to the methods and purpose taught and carried out by Christ and His first disciples.
This conviction led to frequent earnest conversations and studies on the subject, which in turn led to religious meetings, and in due times a number of these people went forth to devote their lives to the preaching of the gospel according to the teaching and example of Christ as given in the New Testament... i.e. "Two by Two" and without salary or making appeal for financial assistance, putting implicit trust in God and His promise that as they "sought first the kingdom of God" their natural needs of food and raiment's "would be added unto them."
As a result of this step, many people expressed their desire to be in fellowship with such preachers and this led to regular gathering together of small assemblies in homes for worship and study of God's word. The reason for meeting in homes was primary because it is Scriptures, the Christians during the first centuries of the Christian were met regularly for worship in the homes, which fact is also borne out and supported by church history.
Thus after serious consideration, the leaders were confident that in their efforts to follow the early Christians they should form church gatherings in homes; therefore NO church property or real estate has been acquired by purchased or otherwise, and for this reason incorporation and registration under denominational name has NOT been necessary....
George Walker
Testimonies of workers through the years...
~~~ "We believe the apostles have Existed since Jesus sent forth the 70 disciples Two and Two." Richard Sullivan. (USA worker)
~~~ "It's from the beginning, planned in God's mind before creation. Walter Nelson. 1976 (USA worker)
~~~ "Was William Irvine the first in the way?" "I think William was among the first... I feel that God has had a Way on the earth since before the foundation of the earth... I don't believe William Irvine is the beginner of it." Bea Mokini. 1985 ( A native Hawaiian worker).
~~~ In answer to your question, "Where did this religion actually begin?" Was it with Jesus as we have been told in Gospel Meetings, or by a man name William Irvine in 1897? We believe Hebrews 12:2 "Looking to Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith." I would like to give you some references that mean a lot to me as we carry the Gospel to people and point them to something that is from the beginning and not to something started by Man.
In John 17:5 Jesus spoke of the glory which He had with the Father before the world was, and in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word" etc. So, there is NO date for the starting, as it was with the Heavenly Father before the world. Why would we want something started by a Man when we have in the scripture something that is from the beginning and the scripture to back it up? Doris B. letter, 1989
~~~ "I never met William Irvine at any time and believe he was used of God, but was Never the Origin of what we believe. I understand he became too big in himself and Left the fellowship we love. Workers I know and respect preach only what Jesus lived and taught with no mention at all of William Irvine, or any other man and give only real appreciation for those who retell in our days things taught in Jesus' day. This faith began in New Testament days, neither in Ireland, Scotland or in the U.K. Roddy M. (Scotland Worker) letter dated 6/1/1995.
~~~ "William Irvine Did Not start this Church, it is from beginning, and the Way was just made evidence to him, then." Karen Tenniswood. 1996 (USA)
~~~ "However, regardless of a written record being preserved, Truth is Truth. If nobody believes it and or ... if everybody believes it. Whether or not a thing is believed in has nothing to do with its correctness. To use parable illustration, the sun rises in the East and sets in the West. That is an established fact of existence. Whether or not people believe the sun rises in the East and sets in the West...in no way changes that established fact of reality...
Everybody could believe the sun rises in the West and sets in the East, but this would not make it true. For anyone to say that what the Bible teaches was started at some certain year since the first century is pitiful Ignorance, and closing the eyes to established facts and truths. The teachings of the New Testament were started in the first century when God's dear Son was here on the earth. That is those truths were established in a group of believers then. But that is NOT where it started.
What God gave through his son was planned before the world began. Matt. 15: 34-35; John 17:24; Acts 3: 20-21; Rom 16: 25-26; I Cor. 2:7; Eph 1:4-5; Titus 1: 2; I Peter 1:18-21. "These truths make very clear that what God the Father... Jesus Christ, the Son of God... and the Holy Spirit believe in, and what God's true ministers and Christians believed in, was planned in the heart and mind of God before the world began, and we Believe the same TODAY. So, it is 100% False for anyone to say that What we Believe was started in some recent year." Dan Hilton. Letter 11/21/89
~~~ "We are NOT following some way Founded in the early 1900s, but it goes back to Christ. Jesus Himself set it up. Whether it was planted in the 1st Century, the 10th century or the 2Oth century, the message is the same, it produces the same thing." Tharold Sylvester 11/16/83 (USA worker)
~~~ "We are simply a Continuation of the Author of Truth." Harry Brownlee. 8/16/79 (USA worker)
~~~ "We are often asked who started this Church?" Heb. 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith." Jesus gave us God's eternal plan of Salvation in its fullness. He is both the Author and Finisher. The Way is like a seed, like the wheat seed. It was Created at the beginning of the world. Dan H. 1/1/84 Burlington, WA. (USA)
~~~ "Don't you believe that something so Precious to God could be Preserved and Passed through his Beloved mouthpieces over any age and time? God's way is Eternal!" Cheryl L.
~~ Who was William Irvine?
William Irvine, was born in Scotland 1/7/1863 and he died in Jerusalem 3/9/1947. William Irvine family was Presbyterians church members. William Irvine had 3 brothers, and 7 sisters= 11 children total. William Irvine was the second oldest son.
~~ 1893 At the age of 30 years old, he made his choice to serve God in a revival meeting in Motherwell, Scotland by Reverend John McNeill, who was a Methodist evangelist.
~~ 1893-95 William Irvine worked as a coal miner. He studied in the Bible Training Institute in Glasgow for two years. In 1895 he became a worker/pilgrim/preacher with the Faith Mission was founded in 1886 by John G. Govan in Scotland, practiced an Apostolic Faith New Testament ministry. The Faith Mission, it's an independent and an inter-denominations (a non-exclusive group teaching their converts to join the church of their choice after they were born again or became Faith Mission Union prayers member if they wish to do so.)
~~ The Faith Mission: John G. Govan
John G. Govan (1861-1927)... organization the Faith Mission, a kind of Holiness Presbyterian ministry in October 1886 to revive Christian living in mainstream denomination through sending out Unordain in pairs same sex, or married, on the apostolic model.
It is understood that the Faith Mission work is essentially itinerant, NOT the establishment of permanent mission stations, but the special mission of places for brief period, passing on afterwards to other parts. We do NOT wish in any way to interfere with denominational preferences and distinctions, but LEAVE those who get help through our missions to ATTACH themselves to WHATEVER church, chapel, or meeting House they choose (non-exclusive teaching).
A basic tenet was total dependence on God for guidance in their evangelistic crusades and for their material needs. The motto was "Have Faith in God."
~~ Nathan1 wrote: John Govan, the Faith Mission founder pilgrim/preachers 2x2 apostolic/workers ministry based on Jesus sending his apostles 2 and 2 or going in pairs= The New Testament apostolic ministry like Jesus sent out the 12 apostles two and two in Matthew 10:1-4 and the second group of 70/72 apostles two and two in Luke 10:1-1. The Faith Mission workers depend upon God as their guidance, and on their members and strangers kindness for their material needs. Their motto was "Have Faith in God."
They were itinerant, preaching in pairs with same sex, and sometimes as married workers couples. They held conventions, special and union meetings, stay in converts' homes and money was given by free will offerings. They use these terminologies such as professing, workers, missions, companion, fields, the work, harvest field.... After William Irvine Left the Faith Mission in 1900, the early 2x2 workers and friends copied/kept the Faith Mission 2x2 apostolic workers and many of their terminologies, workers, the friends, conventions, special meetings, gospel meetings, etc....
John George Govan (1861–1927) was a Scottish businessman and evangelist who founded The Faith Mission in 1886. He was born in Glasgow on 19 January 1861 one of 12 children to William Govan and his wife Margaret Rattray Arthur. They lived at a villa "Southpark" in Hillhead and his father owned and ran a company William Govan & Sons.
He converted to evangelism in 1873 aged only 12. In 1882 he was further influenced by the preaching of Dwight L. Moody whilst on a traveling tour from America. He claimed to be "cleansed of all sin" by 1883. He was inspired on hearing accounts of the Holiness movement from friends who had attended the Keswick Convention of 1884. With the goal of leading a life wholly devoted to God...
www.revolvy.com/topic/John%20George%20Govan
2) Dwight Lyman Moody (February 5, 1837 – December 22, 1899), also known as D. L. Moody, was an American evangelist and publisher connected with the Holiness Movement, who founded the Moody Church, Northfield School and Mount Hermon School in Massachusetts (now Northfield Mount Hermon School), the Moody Bible Institute, and Moody Publishers.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwight_L._Moody
3) Holiness movement:
The Holiness movement refers to a set of beliefs and practices which emerged from 19th-century Methodism, and to a number of Evangelical Christian denominations, parachurch organizations, and movements which emphasize those beliefs as central doctrine. The movement is Wesleyan-Arminian in theology, and is defined by its emphasis on John Wesley's doctrine of a second work of grace leading to Christian perfection. As of 2015 Holiness-movement churches had an estimated 12 million adherents.
The Methodists of the 19th century continued the interest in Christian holiness that had been started by their founder, John Wesley in England. They continued to publish Wesley's works and tracts, including his famous A Plain Account of Christian Perfection. From 1788 to 1808, the entire text of A Plain Account was placed in the Discipline manual of the Methodist Episcopal Church (USA), and numerous persons in early American Methodism professed the experience of entire sanctification, including Bishop Francis Asbury.
Second Great Awakening: By the 1840s, a new emphasis on Holiness and Christian perfection began within American Methodism, brought about in large part by the revivalism and camp meetings of the Second Great Awakening (1790–1840).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiness_movement
~~ NathanB: Cherie Kropp..... The 2x2 workers before the Faith Mission 2x2 Pilgrims/workers were the Holiness Movement workers in 1840s. Here are photos of the Holiness movement... VERY interesting... very much like the 2x2 friends and workers tent gospel meetings in the early days...
search.aol.com/aol/image?q=Holiness+movement+photos&v_t=webmail-searchbox
Study Matthew 10: William Irvine/Faith Mission preacher, Fred Hughes/Faith Mission preacher and John Long. Going in Faith Lines. John Long converted to preach the Faith lines in 1898.
*** William Irvine asked John Long "When did God changed this?" John Long replied, "I supposed it has never changed. " (ref. Doug Parker the Secret Sect book) *** William Irvine was discipline by the Faith Mission in 1898. John Long was excommunicate from the 2x2 ministry and fellowship in 1907 for being non-exclusive worker.
~~ NathanB1 One of the greatest concerns William Irvine and most of the early workers were having with John Long as a 2x2 worker was that he wanted his 2x2 converts to stay in the churches, where they have attended or join the churches of their choice. John Long was a non-exclusive 2x2 worker, by sending his converts to whatever churches or denomination his 2x2 converts want to go.
The 2x2 workers in the past or present do NOT want sent their converts back to the churches, which they came out of Babylon or 40,000 plus denominations religious confusion. If any 2x2 worker today is believing, teaching non-exclusive doctrine publicly or sent their converts to join other churches will be excommunicate from the ministry.
~~ The Division of 1914-1917 : William Irvine LEFT as the leader/worker and fellowship of the 2x2 Church.
~~ August, 1954: Testimony of an ex-2x2 Ida West from North Ireland
An interested person has asked me to tell my story with regard to my faith and the fellowship I have kept. My parents were John and Sarah West brought up in the Church of Ireland (Anglican). My father, for a time previous to his marriage, moved and worked among the Methodists. Soon after his marriage in 1901, he, Edward Cooney, Tom Betty and others, all of whom used to evangelize together, moved out of the sects to which they belonged, Church of Ireland, Methodist, Presbyterian and so on, into fellowship with William Irvine, a Scottish Presbyterian evangelist in the Faith Mission, who was with others moving out of Faith Mission toward clearer light on New Testament teaching and practices.
They took the view that Christendom was confusion of which God was not the author. So they decided to go to Christendom and the world the way Jesus sent his apostles to Israel (Matthew 10) and to the world (Matthew 28). This is what the preachers did. My father, who did not go to preach, opened his heart and home to these preachers who sold their possessions, scattered their money to the poor and went out to preach by faith. Their message was repent, believe the gospel, follow the teaching and example of New Testament founders--Christ and the apostles. This move raised the opposition of clergy and leaders among the denominations, e.g. Church of Ireland, Methodists, Presbyterians, Salvation Army, Plymouth Brethren and others.
The young movement held the course to take was 'Come out of Babylon' which is confusion. By this they meant to refuse fellowship with the world, false teachers and systems because they contradicted the teaching and example of Christ and his apostles. Their opponents held that it was better to stay in and clean up inside; but they ignored the fact that principalities and powers need exposure and triumphing over (Col. 2:15). This could only be done by a fuller manifestation of Christ through willing witnesses which this people proved by bearing their cross representing Christ as He in bearing his cross represented or declared the Father. The movement grew and spread rapidly.
~~ Nathan1 wrote: Here are some of the testimonies from workers, ex-workers who testified that William Irvine the founder of the 2x2 church in 1897 and Cherie Kropp, owner of the Telling The Truth 2x2 Website believed their testimonies as the gospel truth. They have NOT studied John Long Journal carefully. John Long journal was available and posted on TTT website around the year 2000s.
www.tellingthetruth.info/history_articles/briefhistory.php
~~ Nathan1: There was no 2x2 worker or the friend in 1897. William Irvine was a Faith Mission preacher in 1897. John Long was a Methodist in 1897. William Irvine converted John Long to join the Faith Mission preachers rank in 1898 but he refused and became Faith Mission Prayer Union member from 1898 and kept his membership until 1915. It seemed John Long, Edward Cooney, George Walker, Jack and Bill Carroll and other workers were movers and shakers of the 2x2 movement more so than William Irvine.
According to Account of The Early Days By Goodhand Pattison Jack, Bill, May Carroll and 70 professed in William Irvine Faith Mission meeting in 1987. They became Faith Mission Prayer Union members. May Carroll joined the Faith Mission preacher in 1899. However, Jack Carroll and May Carroll left the Faith Mission group, and they joined with William Irvine after he left the Faith Mission in 12/1900. Bill Carroll, his wife and two of his younger sisters became 2x2 workers after 1901-3.
Cherie Kropp ex-2x2 TTT website site, and many anti-books, and anti-2x2 websites on the Internet believed William Irvine was the Founder of the 2x2 in 1897. William Irvine copied/continued the Faith Mission 2x2 workers apostolic ministry, which John Govan, Faith Mission Founded in 1886. William Irvine 2x2 workers ministry came from John Govan 2x2 Workers who founded in 1886. Many 2x2 early workers and friends professed through William Irvine's missions when he was a Faith Mission preacher.
William Irvine believed Jesus 2x2 apostolic Itinerant ministry was planned by the Godhead- God the Father, Christ our Lord God Savior, and the Holy Spirit before the foundation of the world and it MUST continue to the time of Jesus 2nd Coming. Most of William Irvine converts came from his Faith Mission days believed the apostolic ministry and the New Testament fellowship to continue to the time of Jesus returns. They followed/joined with William Irvine and the early days 2x2 workers after he LEFT the Faith Mission in 1900. They became 2x2 workers and the friends group/fellowship after 1900s.
Edward Cooney began to baptize his 2x2 converts so eventually the rest of the 2x2 workers did the same. It was Edward Cooney started the Sunday morning worship meeting= Worshipping the Godhead--- God the Father, Christ the Lord God, our Savior and the Holy Spirit. They celebrated Christ's Passover with bread and wine/grapes juice in remembering of Jesus life, death, and resurrection. The 2x2 workers didn't teach their converts to join the churches of their choice after they professed.
~~ 2/7/2014 Whathat, an ex-2x2 wrote on the Truth Message Board.
Nathan1: I believe Whathat hits the nail right on the head! This is what I have been trying to say for 25 years..... Cherie K. and MOST ex-2x2 and many 2x2s DO NOT Understand or believe it !! because they believe Cherie Telinng the Truth website is recording the WHOLE truth history of William Irvine.
Whathat wrote: "Interestingly, there is a picture of ALL the Faith Mission pilgrims/preachers as of 1892, standing in our rows like the 2x2 workers picture, and at their feet is a banner "The Holiness" movement is simply the idea that you are redeemed when you are born again in Christ, but you are NOT sanctified at that point; you are NOT holy. William Irvine was steeped in it, because he attended Keswick Convention which is seen as the center of the Holiness movement.
Diagram of the Holiness movement (John Wesley founder)....
www.swartzentrover.com/cotor/E-Books/holiness/Holiness%20Movement.gif
Anyway, the pedigree is actually from the Moravian Church which dates back to 1457. John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist, but who was actually an Anglican Holiness doctrine widely in his sermons and later in his book titled "Christians perfection" is the same idea as Holiness.
So, this is from Wiki----
It was on the voyage to the colonies that the Wesleys first came into contact with Moravian settlers was influenced by their deep faith and spirituality. During the voyage a storm came up and broke the mast of the ship. While the English panicked, the Moravians calmly sang hymns and prayed. This experienced led Wesley possessed inner strength which he lacked.
The deeply personal religion that the Moravian pietists practiced heavily influence Wesley's theology of Methodist. And then the Moravian church was an offshoot of Catholicism, but almost a pre-Reformation one. However, some people believe the Moravians church, I will quote the Apostolic Succession through the Waldensians (1170 A.D.) Church.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiness_movement
Anyway, potentially the lineage is:
Jesus Christ the Founder of the New Testament 2x2 apostolic ministry and Church (33 A.D) >>> Paul the Apostle (68 A.D.) ...... the Vaudois (400 A.D.) ...... the Waldensians ( 1170 A.D.) ...... Albigeneses ( 1300 A.D.) ...... Moravians (1400 A.D.) ...... John Wesley (1700 A.D) ...... Holiness movement (1800 A.D.) ..... the Faith Mission ( 1886 A.D.) ...... 2x2 Workers and Friends ...... (1898/1900------>> Jesus 2nd coming!)
I would have voted for 1897 William Irvine Founder date UNTIL a) I read John Long's Journal b) learned more on the socio-historical background that information and other preachers. That background included information on the Faith Mission, the Awakening in Scotland, various independent preaching movement and before that I could NOT see the forest before the trees. Now, I see William Irvine, John Long and the other first 2x2 workers as having separated from a much larger preaching movement in Scotland in the late 19th Century, one which culminated in schism because the main denomination would NOT accept the Holiness doctrine.
As a "late date" fan at the present time, that would certainly make William Irvine the FIRST leader/overseer/head worker of the 2x2 movement. Founder? I have just NEVER liked calling William Irvine the Founder of the 2x2 movement. Nathan's selection of Edward Cooney quotes to Impartial Reporter in 1909 in the early days, and shed quite a bit of light on the early days of the movement, in my opinion. John Wesley's the Methodist worked and preaching on Christians perfection and his ideas in that area were strongly influenced in that area of Moravian Church, which is the Vaudois, and the Waldensians.
professing.proboards.com/thread/18832/faith-mission-origin?page=1
~~ Nathan1: Most of the workers and friends do NOT believe in Apostolic Succession but what they don't KNOW or Understanding is the 2x2 workers have 117 years plus of 2x2 workers succession since the days of William Irvine.
What Cherie K. failed to tell the readers from the beginning of the creation TTT website in 1990s was/is that Jesus 2x2 apostolic/workers New Testament ministry and fellowship have existed for 1800 years prior to the Faith Mission and 2x2 workers movement.
Here are two of the reasons why William Irvine left the Faith Mission 12/1900
Impartial Newspaper 1910 The Tramp Preachers (2x2)
William Irvine gave up his connection with the Faith Mission for TWO reasons, according to my information 1st because John G. Govan the founder of the Faith Mission 1886 was alleged to have been a "hypocrite" in that while teaching the pilgrims/preachers/workers to live by Faith when he himself had over hundreds of pounds!
2nd reason because Mr. Irvine converts always lapsed and were lost among the clergy by going back to their own congregation or what is KNOWN as churches.
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/90/Impartialrep25aug1910.jpg
~~ Nathan1: The Faith Mission sent their converts back to the churches that they came out of or join any churches they wanted. Join the churches of your choice. Like sending them back to the bottomless pit they just came out of. There were other reasons, the early workers left the Faith Mission, because they did NOT baptize their converts. They did not partake the communion or Bread and Wine in their Sunday worship services.
When lies become more abundant than the truth then the TRUTH hurts... Galatians 4:16 "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?"
Someone wrote: It takes integrity and courage to tell the truth, especially in place of an opposition. The truth can hurt but it will always yield good fruit when it is accepted and adhered to. It takes integrity to tell the truth.
People want to know the truth; some are more earnest in this pursuit than others. People want truth, not lies. No one likes to be lied to, especially when they are involved in a matter with the one lying. There are those who get caught in a small lie and make up another lie to cover it up. People will say anything to protect their reputation or life. Sometimes they don’t realize what they are doing, because it’s the fallen human nature at work.
Unfortunately, in our day, lies are more common than the truth. There is a raging battle of truth against lies. So it becomes refreshing to hear the truth spoken and promoted.
The Scripture tells us “the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one” (1 John 5:19). Jesus said of Satan in John 8:44: “He does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of it.”
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Post by Nathan1 on Jun 21, 2022 3:28:58 GMT
6/17/19 Mountain/RAM wrote: Anyway, I have to say that you are a very hard man to fool, Nathan1. You meticulously research anything before you will believe it as fact. Such screening makes it very difficult to convince you of anything. I'm sure many on this board will share my views regarding your proneness to detail and doubting.
Therefore I would strongly advise anyone who doubts anything that you post, that they likewise venture on the quest of meticulous research before doing so. You've set the standard. Let others follow. Just as the gondolier seldom encounters rabbits in his pathway, so too let your detractors encounter discrepancy with what you present as genuine.
Consider Nathan. An extremely intelligent character, who carries out meticulous research before presenting his views on here. Basically he is second to none. Have you noticed that there are several atheists on this board and every time Nathan engages them he wipes the floor with their arguments. Have you ever considered that these atheists are mere concoctions of Nathan, whom he shoots down time and again with his views, leaving himself the master of the debate. Generally there is no contest. Nathan wins hands down every time. They have no answer to him. Have you ever wondered why that is?
2) Ram/Mountain wrote in 6/25/21
Firstly, I do not want anyone to jump to the conclusion that I am supporting or encouraging Nathan! I have had my differences and dare I say heated exchanges with this dear fellow over the years. Nevertheless I do insist on a fair and unbalanced approach. I seek this from others, often unsuccessfully, in my exchanges, but do seek to extend this principle to others and that includes Nathan1.
Secondly, Nathan has received much criticism and ridicule for his beliefs on this board and most recently on this thread. Such things are fair in my opinion if they are deserved, especially when a person brings it upon themselves. However, in assessing the merits of the case I always look at the evidence with an open mind in a fair, balanced way without showing fear, favor, malice, ill will to anyone. It was part of my training. I go where the evidence, properly viewed, leads me.
Much has been alleged about 'ridiculous statements' made by Nathan, but I look for the supporting evidence and I am at a loss to see even one, yes even one, carefully prepared, competent rebuttal of even one of his statements. Plenty of emotion, opinion, bias, beliefs, etc., but yet not a single properly constructed opposing viewpoint, sufficient in its content, to devour what Nathan expresses. That such arguments may be able to be prepared is not the issue. I simply await their presentation. I am not rejecting any statement made against Nathan, I merely ask for proper support for the various positions claimed.
I too used to, almost impulsively jump in and challenge some of Nathan's offerings. Take the occasion, some time ago now, when Nathan clearly stated for all to see, that the NAZIs had secret, even top secret bases in occupied Europe during the Second World War. Initially I found such ideas amusing to say the least, and thankfully I remained quiet with this one, rather than jump in and challenge it, because not long afterwards I came across other verifiable sources fully supporting the claims that Nathan had made. The NAZIs did indeed have secret bases in occupied Europe during the Second World War, even top secret ones. This makes one careful, very careful, about being too swift to challenge such matters in the future, especially from the same source. Egg on the face to RAM (as it was then). That's not happening again!
2) jetmech wrote 2 weeks on TMB before he died in 2021:
From what I've read, Roselyn T, Jesus will come back like a thief in the night … no one knows when a thief in the night will be coming nor from what direction, nor to what location, etc. So, I can't say one way or the other. I can't outright say my friend is wrong about the Venus; With that said, I believe too many times different ones on this board are tergiversatious in their thinking and communicating. Ever tried to hold a conversation with a tergiversate? You're wasting your time, because the tergiversate will NEVER agree with you on anything, and that's the very basis of being a tergiversate … never to agree, always to debate … it's a 'condition.'
I admire Nathan, especially since he's an Asian, because he understands the English language as well as he does, and I admire the detail at which he understands biblical ideas and concepts after having grown up in Vietnam and moved to the USA and obviously self-taught himself so many things about our culture, adopting our ideas, and taking these things on himself.
I don't agree with every little thing Nathan says; but, I can say honestly, I've learned more from Nathan about the Bible than I learned in gospel meeting during my entire childhood and adult life - before I met him on the board 20 years ago.
I believe if the tergiversates who constantly feign disagreement with Nathan1 as a reason to constantly reply negative, would step back, take a breath, pause and contemplate, and "listen to understand" rather than "listen to reply" … they'd see many things to admire Nathan about.
7/24/2021 Dan said:
It makes no sense to criticize someone for something you have never done. Many people that offer for the Work don't stay in for life, but one should respect the effort and self-sacrifice regardless. One of my sisters did 15 years in the Work, she helped and encouraged a lot of people prior to leaving and getting married. Its not an easy thing, anyone with the faith to tackle it ought to be commended.
Its easy to throw stones from the cheap seats on the sideline, but its important to recognize and appreciate those who contributed something of which we were incapable or unwilling to do ourselves. Nathan1 has obviously not lost his zest for spreading the gospel, whether one agrees with everything or not. Hope everyone can disagree without attacking?
~~ SharonW or STR. wrote in 2018:
You're absolutely right, Nathan1! Jesus, God the Son is such an awesome Almighty One! It still amazes me to think I'd gone nearly 60 yrs. reading the bible very faithfully and NEVER got that for myself! Strange that, eh? I pray for those in the fellowship still, that they can come to that maturity of understanding about our Beloved Lord! I think that they are missing something totally OUT OF THIS WORLD! Simply because the majority of them have LITTLE idea about who Jesus really is! O What A Savior! I had hardly ever heard of the concept except in a table discussion back when I was about 4 or 5 yrs. old. A number of workers and our family sharing a meal together.
My Gram having been raised a Baptist, knew what the Trinity concept was. It was brought into discussion and the older workers exclaimed that the doctrine was a heresy! I never heard of the concept again until coming on TMB.
Nathan wrote an extensive explanation with scripture backing of what the Trinity means and is...it was almost beyond my comprehension! I became troubled that this was beyond my comprehension so much so, that I prayed to God that "IF HE thought it necessary for me to understand the Trinity, then would HE PLEASE reveal it to me." I left it there and after some time, it begin to come to me at another time of prayer like a light from heaven! The joy of that understanding of my Lord is beyond another imagination, comprehension.... YES! God revealed it to me! Jesus is the most wonderful awesome King of Kings and Lord of Lords and HE died for me! Hallelujah! And I was professing when this happened!
I believed in the Trinity while I was still professing! After I'd studied Jesus Christ for about 3 years and had some long arguments with Nathan and Stanne here on TMB with Scott sometimes putting a bit of information in the kettle, I had to realize that all that Nathan and Stanne were saying about the Trinity was definitely in the bible even thought the word "Trinity" wasn't!
As time passed and more realization of what the Trinity was all about, and I'll say we that do believe are always gaining more insight into it as we go on and maturity of using the word of God (the bible) feeding on the "meat of the word" that it is certainly like most of mankind throughout the ages that as each generation lives and dies the more understanding of the heavenly God has come into the minds of that generation.
So I feel that ignorance and misunderstanding is what's keeping most in the 2x2 from accepting or knowing the Trinity= Triune God concept.
Paul's Fourth Mission Journey from the Bible and early church history:
It is clear from (Acts 13:1-21; 17) that Paul went on three journeys. There is also reason to believe that he made a "Fourth" journey after his "Release" from the Roman imprisonment recorded in (Acts 28). The conclusion that such a journey did, indeed, take place is based on:
1) Paul's declared intention to go to Spain (Romans 15:24,28). 2) Eusebius' implication that Paul was released following his first Roman imprisonment (Ecclesiastical History, 2.22.2-3). 3) Statements in early Christians literature that he took the gospel as far as Spain (Clement of Rome, epistle to the Corinthians, Chapter 5: actus Petri Vercellenses, chapter 1-3; Muratiorian Canon, lines 34-39).
1. Rome--- released from prison (Acts 28) in A.D. 62
2. Spain--- 62-64 (Romans 15:24,28)
3. Crete---64-65 (Titus 1:5)
4. Miletus--- 65 (II Timothy 4:20)
5. Colosse---66 (Philemon 22)
6. Ephesus---66 (I Timothy 1:3)
7. Philippi--- 66 (Philippians; I Timothy 1:3)
8. Nicopolis---66, 67 (Titus 3:12)
9. Rome again---67
10. Martyrdom --- 67/68 Paul was beheaded by Emperor Nero in Rome.
After the church had received the power of the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2), it began, at once, to greatly multiply, and 8,000 souls were saved (Acts 2:41; Acts 4:4), to extend itself to the different cities and town of Judea. At the close of the "apostolic period", the church had spread beyond the limits of Judea to Macedonia, Crete, Asia Minor (Turkey today), Pisidia, Greece, Italy, Cilicia, Pontus, Cappadocia, Bithynia, Spain, Gaul (France) and Britain. The successors of the "Apostles," who were commonly called the "Apostolic fathers," were Polycarp, Hermas, Clement or Rome, Ignatius, and Papias.
The Apostolic Fathers were Christian theologians who lived in the 1st and 2nd centuries AD, who are believed to have personally known some of the Twelve Apostles, or to have been significantly influenced by them.[1] Their writings, though popular in Early Christianity, were ultimately not included in the canon of the New Testament once it reached its final form. Many of the writings derive from the same time period and geographical location as other works of early Christian literature that did come to be part of the New Testament, and some of the writings found among the Apostolic Fathers' seem to have been just as highly regarded as some of the writings that became the New Testament.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_Fathers
Apostolic Fathers' Writings
Clement of Rome 1st century. He may well have been a companion of both Peter and Paul (Phil. 4:3). On the behalf of the church in Rome, he wrote a letter to the Corinthian church, in aid the church leaders who had been ousted by a minority faction. Ignatius (A.D. 35-107) A personal disciple of one or more apostles. He was executed in Rome A.D. 107. On his way to Rome as a prisoner, Ignatius wrote letters to several churches; these letters give considerable insight into the structure and beliefs of the churches in Asia Minor (Turkey) at the close of the apostolic age.
Papias (A.D.60-130) A disciple of John the apostle and a friend of Polycarp. He was a Bishop (pastor) of Hierapolis in Asia Minor (Turkey today). His testimony concerning the Gospels of Matthew and Mark has been invaluable to the church.
Polycarp (A.D. 69-156) Another disciple of John apostle. He was faithful bishop (pastor) of Smyrna. He was arrested in his old age and was burned to death.
Justin Martyr (A.D. 160) When the disciples had seen Jesus ascending into heaven, and had believed, and received the Power, He sent upon them from heaven, they went to Every race of men. And, they taught these things and were called apostles. These Twelve disciples went forth throughout the known parts of the world, and continued to show His greatness with all modesty and uprightness.
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195) Christ is said to have baptized Peter alone and Peter baptized Andrew; Andrew and, John. The two of them baptized James and the rest. To James the Just. John, and Peter, the Lord imparted knowledge after His resurrection. These imparted it to the rest of the apostles. And the rest of the apostles imparted it to the "Seventy" (in Luke 10:1-2), of whom Barnabas was one.
Tertullian (A.D. 197) As their Divine Master commanded them, "When He, the Spirit of Truth will come, He will lead you into ALL truth." You have the work of the apostles also predicted: How beautiful are the feet of those who Preach the gospel of peace, which bring glad tidings of good NOT of war, nor evil tidings (Isa. 52:7). In response to which is the (Psalm 19:5) "Their voice is gone through all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world." We see the voice of the apostles have gone forth into all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. His disciples, also spreading over the world, did as their Master commanded them.
Origin (A.D. 245) On this account, the apostles LEFT Israel and accomplished that which had been commanded them by the Savior: "Make disciples of ALL the nations." It was by the help of a Divine power that these men taught Christianity, and succeeded in leading others to embrace the Word of God. For it was NOT any power of theirs speaking. At the request of their Master and God, the disciples scattered over the world and gave forth his teachings for Salvation.
Lactantius (A.D. 304-313) At this time after the ascension, his apostles were 11 in number. To them was added Matthias, in the place of the traitor Judas Iscariot. And, afterward Paul was added. Then they were dispersed throughout ALL the earth to Preach the gospel of the Lord, as their Master had commanded them. For the next 25 years (until the beginning of the reign of Emperor Nero), they busied themselves in laying the foundations of the churches in every province and city.
Paul's Missions' Journey and his followers Vaudois Christians/Apostles. (Romans 15:24) Paul wrote approximately (A.D. 67) Whenever I journey to Spain, I shall come to you. (Col. 1:23) The gospel which you heard was preached to every creature under heaven.
~~~ Clement of Rome (A.D.96) After preaching both in the east and west, Paul gained the illustrious reputation due to his faith, having taught righteousness to the whole world, and having come to the extreme limit of the west [the extreme limit of the west refers to either Spain or Britain.] Irenaeus (A.D. 180) The churches which have been planted in Germany do not believe or hand down anything different, nor do those in Spain, nor those in Gaul (France).
Tertullian (A.D. 197)... By this time, the name of Christ has reached the manifold confines of the Moors, (Germany) all the limits of Spain, the diverse nations of the Gaul (France) and the haunts the Britons inaccessible to the Romans, but subjugated to Christ... furthermore, there are Germans, Scythians, and persons of many remote nations and provinces and islands many to us unknown and which we can scarcely enumerate. In all the places, the name of Christ (who is already come) reigns. Christ's name extending everywhere, believed everywhere, worshipped by all the above-enumerated nations, and is reigning everywhere.
Mutatorian Fragment (A.D. 200) The principle on which Luke wrote was to write only of what fell under his own notice. And, he shows this clearly by the omission of martyrdom of Peter, and also of the journey of Paul, when he went from the city of Rome to Spain.
The Historical Background of the book Revelation: The visions John saw while he was a prisoner on the island of Patmos. Christ gave John visions and the book was written, in the ghastly light of burning Martyrs. The church was 66 years old. It had grown enormously. It had suffered, and was suffering terrific persecutions.
Emperor Nero in A.D 64-67 instigated the first imperial persecution of Christians, 30 years before this book was written. In that persecution many Christians were crucified, thrown to wild beasts, or wrapped in combustible garments and burned to death while Nero laughed at the pitiful shrieks of burning men and women. Paul and Peter suffered martyrdom in Nero's persecution.
The second imperial persecution was under Emperor Domitian (A.D. 95). It was short but extremely severe. More than 40,000 Christians were tortured and killed. It was during this period of persecution in which John was banished to Patmos. The third imperial persecution was that of Trajan and was soon to begin (A.D. 98). John had lived through the first two and was now about to enter the third of Rome's efforts to blot out Christian faith. Those were the dark days for the Church. Still, darker days were coming. But, persecution was NOT the only problem. The church itself, from within, was beginning to show signs of Corruption and Apostasy.
Someone wrote:
Wednesday, March 7, 2012
Why Was the Book of Revelation Written Symbolically?
A common view among Christians generally is that John wrote the Book of Revelation in symbols as a kind of code. The church was experiencing persecution and John wanted to write critically of Rome in such a way that the recipients of his book would not get in trouble for harboring such an inflammatory document. He wrote in symbols so that any non-initiated Roman would fail to understand what he was reading, and thus the church would be spared further persecution.
It would take a pretty ignorant Roman censor to fail to notice that the harlot riding the beast in ch. 17--the beast with seven heads which are seven mountains (17:9), and the harlot that is the great city (17:18)--represents Rome.
Because such a view presents current problems in an eschatological context, the message of Revelation also becomes relevant to future generations of Christians who, Christ forewarned, would likewise suffer persecution. The victory of God over Satan (in this case, the perseverance of Christians in the face of Roman persecution) typifies similar victories over evil in ages still to come and God’s final victory at the end of time.
Although Christ is clearly the central figure of Revelation, an understanding of the text presupposes familiarity with Old Testament language and concepts, especially those taken from the books of Daniel and Ezekiel. The author uses the number seven, for example, in a symbolic sense to signify “totality” or “perfection.” References to “a thousand years” (chapter 20) have led some to expect that the final victory over evil will come after the completion of some millennium.
www.britannica.com/topic/Revelation-to-John
Revelation is first and foremost a revelation about Jesus Christ (1:1). The book depicts Him as the risen, glorified Son of God ministering among the churches (1:1). As "The faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth" (1:5); As "the Alpha and the Omega" (1:8); As the one "who is and who was and who is the come, the Almighty" (1:8);
As a son of man (1:13):
As the one who was dead, but now is alive forevermore (1:18);
As the Son of God (2:18);
As the one who is holy and true (3:7);
As "the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God" (3:14);
As the Lion of the tribe of Judah (5:5);
As the Lamb in heaven, with authority to open the title deed to the earth (6:1ff);
As the Lamb on the throne (7:17);
As the Messiah who will reign forever (11:15);
As the Word of God (19:13);
As the majestic King of kings and Lord of lords, returning in glorious splendor to conquer His foes (19:11); an As "the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star" (22:16).
bible-studys.org/Discoverrevelation.com/Book%20of%20Revelation%20Explained.html
The Pilgrim Church by E.H. Broadbent Page 81-101
Who are the Vaudois and Where did they come from?
The Vaudois (A.D. 68-1800) are, in fact, "Descended" from those refugees from ITALY who after Paul (A.D. 68) apostle had there "Preached" the Gospel, abandoned their beautiful country and FLED, like the Woman mentioned in the Book of (Revelation, Chapter 12), to these Wild mountains (Swiss Alps), where they have to, this day, handed down the Gospel from "father to son," in the SAME purity and simplicity as it was preached by Paul apostle.
The Brethren in the valleys NEVER lost the knowledge and consciousness of their "Origin" and "Unbroken" history there. In the Alpine Valleys of Piedmont (Italy) there had been, for centuries, congregations of believers calling themselves brethren, who came widely known as "Waldenses or Vaudois," though they did NOT, themselves, accept the name.
They trace their "Origin" in those parts, back to Apostolic times. Like many of the so-called Cathar, Paulican, and other churches, these were NOT "Reformed" NEVER having degenerated from the New Testament patterns, as had the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox and some others, but having ALWAYS maintained, in varying degree, the Apostolic tradition.
From the time of the Emperor Constantine (3rd century) there HAD continued to be a "Succession" of those who preached the Gospel and founded churches, uninfluenced by the relations between Church and State existing at the time. This accounts for the large bodies of Christians, well established in the Scriptures, and free from idolatry and the other evils prevailing in the dominant professing Church, to be found in the Taurus Mountains and Alpine valleys.
These latter, in the quiet seclusion of their mountains, had remained unaffected by the development of the Roman Catholic Church. The "Vaudois" considered the Scriptures, both for doctrine and church order, to be binding of their time, and NOT rendered obsolete by change of circumstances. It was SAID of them that their whole manner of thought and Action was an endeavor to "HOLD FAST" the character of Original Christianity.
When, from the 14th century onward, the valleys were invaded and the people had to negotiate with surrounding rulers, they always emphasized this to the Prince of Savoy, who had the longest dealings with them, they could "ALWAYS" assert without fear of contradiction the uniformity of their faith, from Father to Son through time immemorial, even the Very AGE of the Apostles.
To Francis I of France they said, in 1544: "This confession is that which we have received from our ancestors, even from Hand to Hand, according as their predecessors in ALL time and EVERY Age have Taught and delivered. Let your Highness consider, that this Religion, in which we live, is NOT merely our religion of the present day, or a religion discovered for the FIRST time only a few years ago, as our enemies Falsely pretend, but it is religion of our fathers and of our grandfathers, yea, of our forefathers and of our predecessors still more remote. It is the religion of the Saints and of the Martyrs, of the Confessors and of the Apostles."
When they came into contact with the Reformers in the 16th century, they said, "Our ancestors have often recounted us that we have EXISTED from the time of the Apostles. In all matters nevertheless we agree with you, and thinking as you think, from the Very days of the apostles themselves, we have ever been consistent respecting the faith."
www.ccel.org/b/bevan/friends/friends.htm, The Three Friends of God in the 14th Century.
The short account given in the following pages of Three of the "Friends of God" of the 14th century, is but a small fragment of a history which would form itself a voluminous library, the history of the "Brethren" of the Middle Ages known to us "Many names", but in England chiefly as the Lollards or Boni Homines.... In the 14th history of the "Friends of God" who stood in immediate connection with "Vaudois and Waldensian",
the Brethren wrote: They said that about the year (A.D. 320) after Christ, the Church in Rome! had fallen into worldliness, and was "Corrupted" through evil teaching. For the Roman emperor Constantine, instead of persecuting the Christians, had begun to honor them, and to give them "Worldly" Power and riches, and the "Bishops" became lords and princes, and the things of God were judged by worldly judges, and NOT by the Word of the Lord.
And, because their fathers had "Held Fast" to the Ancient teachings of the apostles of the Lord, they had been KILLED. Many of them had FLED to the mountains in Italy, and Switzerland (Alps mountains), France and some to other countries. God had kept them as the apple of His eye, and they could "NEVER" be destroyed though they had to suffer hardship, persecution, death, from generation to generation. So, as time went on, they were found in many races, and in many lands, and wherever they went, they brought the Word of God, as they "Believed" the apostles taught it.
A Condensed History of the Early Church.
by J.V. Kirkland
The churches of Rome, Antioch, Alexandria, and Carthage now (A.D. 240), began to be great centers of religious power, and had, by a surprising extent, changed the form of government. Instead of old government of democracy, they had become to be monarchies; and the purity and simplicity of the "Primitive" churches were given up for worldly pride and "Superstition." Even in those churches where so much corruption had crept in, there were many pious men, who groaned under these innovation and impositions, which were so sad corrupting their beloved Zion.
From the reign of Emperor Septimius Severus, in (A.D 210) till the reign of Decius, Christians were allowed a great deal of religious liberty. When Decicus came to the throne in (A.D.249), he required, by edict, all persons in the empire to conform to pagan worship. This edict rent asunder the churches. Hundreds apostatized, and many were martyred.
When this trial abated after two years, many apostates applied to the church for restoration, and the lovers of popularity were ready at once to accept them. The was a Bishop (Pastor) in the church at Rome at this time named "Novatian," marked piety and learning. His address was eloquent and insinuating, and his moral were irreproachable. Novatian strongly opposed the admission of such, as had accepted the pagan worship and blasphemed the name of Jesus, to escape suffering during the time of persecution.
Bishop Fabian, who was the pastor of the church in Rome, was martyred during the persecution under Decius (A.D. 249); and Cornelius, a man who was eager to take in all who had denied the faith during the times of persecution, was elected which resulted in a permanent "Division" in the church of Rome. This Division resulted in TWO denominations. One continued upon the original principle, while the other developed into the form of government the "Roman Catholic (universal) Church."
Emperor Constantine came to the throne of the empire in (A.D. 306), and during his conflict with Maximus in (A.D. 312), he professed the Christian religion. He first tried to unite the "Novatians" with the "Cornelius' party", but the Novatianists refused this union on account of the corruption of the Cornelius party. Emperor Constantine finally joined the Christian church (the Cornelius party) on May 22, A.D 337. He now establishes the Christian religion by law. They called their party the "Catholic Church."
The term "Catholic" denotes anything Universal, or Entire. The church Catholic means all the members of Christ's body; hence the extravagance of the claim. This party being now established by law, began to incorporate almost ALL the heathen festivals that were celebrated while the empire was under pagan religion. The Christians were so proud to think that they had an emperor to protect them, that they submitted almost all control in his hands.
The whole body of the church now took the side and power and worldly show. It began to hold councils, instead of consulting the Scriptures, to decide all the affairs of doctrine and practice. The chairman of these councils finally began to be called "Universal Bishops," and was regarded as having general ecclesiastical authority. The first to assume this title was John, the Faster in A.D. 588. Boniface, III seemed to be the first to establish the "Succession of Popes!"
It is evident, from an abundance of undoubted evidence, that the Novatianists resorted to the Valleys of Piedmont (Italy) about the beginning of the 5th century and were called "Waldenses." Some of the prominent ministers and writers of the church, while they were called "Novatianinsts" were Novatian, Novatus, Sampronianus, Cyril, Albanus, Agelius, Acesius, Sisinnius, Marcian, Mark, and Leo. These exercise their ministry from (A.D. 240-439.) There are various opinions as to the origin of the name "Waldenses." The most popular opinion is that they derived their names from the Valleys of Piedmont.
Dr. McLean, the learned translator of Mosheim's "History" in a note on Mosheim's account of the Waldenses, who supposes that they derived their name from Peter Waldo (A.D. 1160) says, "We may venture to affirm the Contrary, with the learned Beza and other writers of note; for it seems evident from the best record that "Valdus" derived his name from the true Valdenses of Piedmont, who doctrine he "ADOPTED" and who were known by the name "Vaudois" and "Valdenses' " before he or his immediate followers existed."
If the Valdenses had derived their name from any eminent teacher, it would have been from Valdo, who was remarkable for the purity of his doctrine in the 9th century, and who was the contemporary and chief counselor of "Berengarius"; but the truth is that they derived their name from their Valley's in Piedmont, which is their language, and are called 'Vauz'hence' Vaudois,' hence "Vaudois," their true name. Hence, Peter Waldo, or as others call him, "John"---of Lyons, France was called in Latin, "Valdus," because he had "ADOPTED" their doctrine; hence the terms "Valdenses" and "Waldenses" used by those who write in English or Latin in the place of "Vaudois."
Reinerius Saccho, a former Waldensian who later became a Catholic inquisitor, excreted such a furious zeal for the "Destruction" of the Waldenses, lived but about 80 years after Valdus (Peter Waldo, of France A.D. 1160) must, therefore, be supposed to have known whether he was the real "Founder" of the "Valdenses or Leonists".
Yet, it is remarkable that he speaks of the "Leonists" as a sect that had flourished above 500 years, and even mentions authors of note who make their antiquity remount the apostolic age. Reinerius also observes: "The Vaudois declare themselves to be the "Apostles' Successors" to have apostolic authority and the keys of binding and loosing. They say that a man is then first baptized when he is received into their community." Of all the sects, observes Reinerius, which have been or now exist, now is more injurious to the Church of Rome, for 3 reasons:
1) Because it is more ancient. Some say their existence from the time of pope Sylvester (A.D. 320); others, from the time of the apostles. 2) Because it is so universal; there is scarcely any country into which this sect has not crept. 3) Because all other heretics excite horror by the greatness of their blasphemies against God; but these have a great appearance of piety, as they live justly before men. (Brown's Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge), Page 1148.
It has been said that they could travel all over the country and stay every night with some of their brethren. In times of persecution, they would often carry baskets of goods with them as peddlers; and after showing their goods, they would say: "We have something of more value than these goods that we will tell you, if you will promise NOT to tell the clergy." After obtaining a promise of protection, they would tell the beautiful story of their doctrine. Often the people would "Profess" their faith, and under the cover of night, would be carried to a suitable place and baptized.
Peter Waldo, a rich merchant of Lyons, France, who it is said derived his name from the Waldenses, after he "Professed" faith in Christ and "JOINED" these people (A.D. 1170), sold his merchandise and appropriate the proceeds to the furtherance of the gospel. He translated the Bible into the vernacular language of Gaul (French). He was hunted down, like a beast of prey, by the Catholic clergy of the established religion, but traveled to Belgium, Germany, Vandals, and Bohemia.
In J. Newton Brown's "Encyclopedia of religious Knowledge:
We are given the following account of the Origin of the name "Waldenses:" The Valleys are called 'Vaux', whence 'Vaudois' and Peter Waldo is said to have borne the name "Waldo", because he was a "Follower" of that sect. The Waldenses taught that the Roman Church DEPARTED from it former sanctity and purity in the time of Emperor Constantine the Great (A.D. 320).
The Waldenses, therefore, "Refused" to submit to the usurped power of its pontiff. In Germany---and later, in England---many of the Waldenses were called "Lollards," as some believe, after the celebrated Water Lollard, of Germany, who exercised his ministry in the early part of the 14th century. Fuller, However, informed us that in the reign of Edward III, about (A.D. 1315).
Walter Lollard, a German preacher or as Perrin in his "History of the Waldenses," calls him one of the "Barbs" (Pastor) of great renown among them, came into England, and was so eminent in England, and as in France they were called "Berengarians" from Berengarius, and "Petrobrusians" from Peter Bruis; and in Italy and Flanders "Arnoldists" from the famous Arnold of Brescia. So did the Waldensian Christians, for many generations afterwards, bear the name of this worthy man, being called "Lollards."
Long before the Reformation, the Waldenses had planted their churches and disseminated their doctrine in almost all the provinces of Europe, particular in France, Germany, Bohemia, Moravia, Switzerland, Holland, and England. In about (A.D. 1158), about 30 persons of Waldensian sect came over into England to disseminate their doctrine. We have mentioned of them in England in (A.D. 1182). Bishop Usher mentions the order of the Friar Minorities coming to England in (A.D. 1235) to "Surpress" the Waldensian heresy.
Mar 8, 2020 believingjesus said:
Outside of the early church, was no one saved for the first ~ 1900 years after Christ’s death? Doesn’t this make for poor timing on God’s part and make Christ’s sacrifice a waste for the first 1900 years? Who, if anyone, was saved during this time period? Since the RCC actively discouraged translation of the Bible, how was anyone saved prior to the Protestant reformation?
~~ Nathan1: In Matthew 16; 24:14. 28:16-20; Acts 1:8 Jesus said to His apostles and followers, "Upon this Rock/Christ I will build MY Church and the gates of Hell shall not overcome it... And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.... Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Jesus said in Acts 1:8 "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." Here are some history of Various Christians that had similar teachings, belief to 2x2s, and the Faith Mission for 1800 years.
Acts 3:46-52 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Paul had most of these gifts himself Eph. 4:11-14. and the saints as well.
And he/Jesus gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Paul wrote two callings: Romans 1:1;7. Apostles and Saints.
Paul as an apostle Romans 1:1
Paul as a Prophet Acts 13:1-2
Paul as ambassador of the gospel II Cor 5:20
Paul as a shepherd II Cor. 11:26-28
Paul as a Minister spiritual leader Eph. 5:5-7
Paul as a Worker Coll. 4:11
Paul as a Teacher, preacher I Tim 2:7
Paul as an Evangelist I Tim. 4:5
The Saints: has similar gifts church elders/pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so on... The ministry gifts were given to prepare God's people to become teachers, preachers, evangelists, and pastors so they too can be better witnesses for Christ in all the world and to strengthen the churches/people of God.
Constitution of the organization ’Kristna i Sverige’ (2x2 Christians in Sweden)
1 - Name: The organizations name is Christians in Sweden Organization
2 - Purpose: The organization has the goal to in all simplicity, uprightness and respect spread the doctrine of Jesus Christ according to the bible.
3 – Organization and field of activity: The organizations members are divided into 2 groups.
Group A: Preachers/apostles
Group B: Believers/disciples
Preachers/apostles (group A) have left their professions and property and gone out in faith to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ according to the teaching of the bible. Matthew 19:21 and 27 and Matthew 28:18-20. They shall strengthen the believers, teach the Bible, visit the hospitals, take funerals and be a support and encouragement for the believers in their homes and in their work as well as encourage them to be good citizens in their country. As well they shall spend their whole time to freely and to all preach the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Group A receives no wage but the organization guarantees them free board and support. Luke 8:3.
Believers in group B shall live in their own homes, have their own profession and shall have no economic responsibilities to the organization.
Worship services are to be held in the believer’s homes. Acts 2:46 and 20:7.
The organization shall not own buildings or property and shall not receive government money. Gifts and support to the organization shall be used completely to cover costs for the organizations activities and conventions, the organizations preachers/apostles as well as support to similar work in other countries.
4 - Membership/Dues: The right to membership is given to every person who shares the organizations goals. There are no membership dues.
5 – Board of directors: The organizations board of directors consists of at least 3 members. On from Group A and 2 from Group B, where one is chairman. The board of directors has its center in Stockholm.
6 – Business Organization: The organizations business-signing rights are given to a director from group A and the chairman, each on their own.
7 – Auditor: The organization shall choose an accountant each year.
8 – Business year: The business year of the organization is one calendar year.
9- Organizations annual meeting: The organizations annual meeting shall be held once a year at the first meeting of the year.
10 – Dissolution: The annual meeting where the organization is dissolved decides over the dispersal of assets. Assets shall not be divided amongst the members.
www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_articles/swedeninc.php
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Post by Nathan1 on Jun 21, 2022 3:30:48 GMT
~~~ Was Peter Waldo in 1160 and William Irvine 1898 Founders or FINDERS of Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry? The answer is neither of them were founders but Finders of Jesus Truth and Way
~~ Nathan1: It was a BIG thing on Cherie K. Telling the Truth website for MANY years= William Irvine the founder of 2x2 1897. On the TTT main page, on the RIGHT hand side, you still have William Irvine picture as the founder of 2x2 1897. Many ex-websites on the Internet say William Irvine is the founder of 2x2 1897 and most of them got that information from your TTT website.
There are similar traits for people saying Peter Waldo the founder of the Waldensians in 1170 A.D..... William Irvine the Founder of the 2x2 in 1897.... because they don't KNOW the REAL church history of it.
Was Peter Waldo, a Frenchman in 1170 A.D. the Vaudois/ Waldenses Founder? The answer is "NO".
Peter Allix: Some remarks upon the Eccesiastic History of the Ancient Church of Piedmont pp. 176-182.
The Waldenses had stiffly opposed the abuses of the Roman Church, and they held their doctrine from father to son, ever SINCE the year A.D. 120, as they had heard and received it from their elders and ancestors. These believers of the valleys could "NOT" be so called from Peter Waldo of Lyons, France because he did "NOT" flourish at the soonest till the year 1170, according to Roger Hovenden, whereas the people of the valleys of Lucerne and Angrogne had the name of Wallenses from the beginning of the 12th century.
I have already made it appear, that they separated themselves from the Church in Rome long before, and that the name Wallenses or Vaudois, was given to them from the place of their abode, which the habitants called les Vaux de Lucerne et Angrogne, that is to say, the Valley of Lucerne Angrogne, from which came the Latin name Valenses, which was afterwards changed to Valdenses, when the design was laid to make men believe Peter (Waldo) Valdo was their founder.
It has often been said that a man Peter Waldo, who lived in Lyons, France about the year 1170, was really the founder of this "sect that was everywhere spoken against." But, history proves that such could "NOT" be the case, as tradition of the Vaudois existence from the days of the apostles can be traced back, they are not only spoken of as having been known for a long while back, but as being numerous all over Western Europe.
For instance, in 1150 the Vaudoios were heard in Cologne, 1177 at Frankfurt, Nuremberg, and other Germans towns; large meetings were held by them at Metz in 1180; in Spain they were persecuted, in 1192 by Alfonso or Aragon, who mentions in his edict against them that he follows the example of his forefathers in forbidding their preaching. In 1170 they were forbidden to preach at Lyons, France by the Pope Lucius III, who edict against them. They abounded at this time in Piedmont, and in Dauphine; all over the Southern of France, at Naples in Sicily, and Southern Italy---in the Netherlands, Flanders, and Brabant --- in Northern France and in England.
Who was Peter Waldo?
In 1160 A.D. Peter Waldo of Lyons, France, a successful merchant and banker, was aroused to see his need of salvation by the sudden death of one of the guests at a feast he had given. A Vaudois theologian directed Peter Waldo to the Lord's words in (Matthew 19:21) "If thou be Perfect, go and "sell" that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shall have treasure in Heaven, and come and follow me."
Peter Waldo, therefore, made over his lands, property to his wife, SOLD the remainder, and distributed it among the poor. They Believe in Apostolic succession through the laying on of the hand of such had it on those really called to receive this grace. They taught that the Church of Rome had lost this when Pope Sylvester accepted the union of Church and State, but it remained among them.
Antiquity of Waldenses:
Raynonard, a notable linguist who examined certain Waldensian writings, was convinced of their antiquity. For instance, with regard to the "Noble Lesson," he wrote that the date of the year 1100 A.D., which we read in the poem, deserves entire confidence." This is three-quarters of a century earlier that the Ministry article's date for the Waldensians.
18) It appears, however, that he was not entirely convinced, since six years later, in 1886, his booklet Who are the Waldenses? compared the influence of the Waldenses with the river Nile that owes its origin to a source still clouded in darkness. He noted that some writers trace the origin of the Waldensian church to the first persecutions of the Christians by the Romans, others to the time of Vigilantius or of Claudius, bishop of Turin, while still others see the Waldensian church first appearing in the twelfth century. And then he stated plainly that the only thing that can be clearly proved is that the origin of the Waldenses is very closely related to the study of the Scriptures.
19) In 1922 the Waldensian school was transferred from Florence to Rome with Emilio's son Ernesto Comba as professor of the theological faculty. Ernesto also wrote a book about the history of the Waldenses: Storia dei Valdesi, published in the Waldensian town of Torre Pellice in 1923. A Dutch copy was published in 1927.
In the first chapter we are assured that at least as early as the fourth century there were flourishing churches in the Piedmont valleys. The chapter also indicated that we can accept Monastier's conviction that the Waldensian church is the connecting link between the ancient Christian churches and the later evangelical churches.
25) Allix also held "that Peter Waldo was not the founder of the churches of the valleys, which were in being long before him." He pointed out clearly and decidedly, "Wherefore, that I may once for all clear this matter, I say, first, that it is absolutely false, that these churches were ever founded by Peter Waldo."
28) Another source remarks: "Peter Waldus or Waldo, who was but a follower of the Waldenses, first became known after the persecution of Lyon, France in the year 1181," while "shortly afterwards the history of the Waldenses is confined mainly to the valleys of Piedmont in Switzerland." Waldo and his followers were at first also called "Leonists" (from "Lyon, France") and when persecuted they "fled into Piedmont, incorporating themselves with the Vaudois."
Hi, Enuf and Fixit
12/2/2020
Nathan1: Can both of you answer these questions for me. You and Fixit on here believe Peter Waldo was the Founder of the Waldense in 1170. How could Peter Waldo be the founder of the Vaudois/Waldenses when they had two confession of Faith articles written in 1120 and 1150 before he was born and written in 1150 at the age of 10.
Peter Waldo, Valdo, Valdes, or Waldes, also Pierre Vaudès or de Vaux, was a leader of the Waldensians, a Christian spiritual movement of the Middle Ages. Wikipedia
Born: 1140, Lyon, France
Died: 1218
Nationality: French
Peter Waldo was born in Lyon, France 1140. So, did he traveled back in time 1120 and he wrote the confession of Faith article in 1120 and wrote the second Confession of Faith in 1150 when he was 10 years old then he became the founder of the Waldenses in 1170. Does this make sense to you, Enuf and fixit?
A History of the Christian Church by William Jones first edition 1812 Chapter 5--section 3.
A view of doctrinal sentiments and religious practices of the Waldenses, collected from their own writings. Their historian, John Paul Perrin, in his "Histoitre des Vaudois," published at Geneva in 1619, has furnished us with two of their "Confessions of Faith," of which the following are faithful translations. Sir Samuel Morland has fixed the date of the first of them in the Year 1120 A.D. [Morland's History of the Churches of Peidmont, Page. 30]
The Confession of Faith of the Waldenses (A.D.1120)
1. We believe and firmly maintain all that is contained in the twelve articles of the symbol, commonly called the Apostles' Creed, and we regard as heretical whatever is inconsistent with the said twelve articles.
2. We believe that there is One Godhead, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
3. We acknowledge for sacred canonical scriptures the books of the Holy Bible.
4. The books above mentioned teach us---that that there is ONE GOD, almighty, unbounded in the wisdom, in infinite in goodness, and who, in his goodness, has made all things. For he created Adam after his own image and likeness. But through the enmity of the devil, and his own disobedience, Adam fell, sin entered into the world, and we became transgressors in and by Adam.
6. That at the time appointed of the Father, Christ was born a time when iniquity everywhere abounded, to make it manifest that it was not for the sake of any good in ourselves, for all were sinners, but that He, who is true, might display his grace and mercy toward us.
7. That Christ is our life, and truth, and peace, and righteousness---our shepherd and advocate, our sacrifice and priest, who died for the salvation of all who should believe, and rose again for justification.
8. And we also firmly believe, that there in NO other mediator, or advocate with God the Father, but Jesus Christ. And as to the Virgin Mary, she was holy, humble, and full of grace; and this we also believe concerning all others Saints, namely, that they are waiting in heaven for the resurrection of their bodies at the Day of Judgment.
9. We also believe, that after this life, there are but two places---One for those who are Saved, and other for the Damned, which [two] we call paradise and hell, wholly denying Purgatory of Antichrist, invented in opposition to the truth.
10. Moreover, we have ever regarded all the inventions of men (in the affairs of religion) as an unspeakable abomination before God; such as the festivals days, and vigils of Saints, and what is called holy-water, the abstaining from flesh on certain days, and such like things, but above all, the Masses.
11. We hold in abhorrence all human inventions, as proceeding from Antichrist, which produce distress [alluding probably to the voluntary penances and mortification imposed by the Catholics on themselves] and are prejudicial to the liberty of the mind.
12. We consider the Sacraments as signs of holy things, or as the visible emblems of invisible blessings. We regard it as proper and even necessary that believers use these symbols or visible forms when it can be done. Notwithstanding which, we maintain that believers may be saved without these signs, when they have neither place nor opportunity of observing them.
13. We acknowledge No sacraments (as of divine appointment) but Baptism and the Lord's supper.
14. We honor the secular powers, with subjection, obedience, promptitude, and payment. [Perrin's Hist. des Vaudois. Ch.12] Masses are impious; and it is madness to say masses for the dead. Purgatory is the invention of men, for they who believe go into eternal life, they who believe not, into eternal damnation. The invoking and worshiping of dead saints is idolatry.
The Church of Rome is the lady of Babylon. The pope has not the primacy over ALL the churches of Christ; neither hath he the power of both swords. That is the church of Christ, which hears the pure doctrine of Christ, and observes the ordinances instituted by him, in whatsoever place it exists.
Another Waldensians confession of Faith (A.D.1150)
1. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son and the image of the Father---that in Him all the fullness of the Godhead dwells, and that by him alone we know the Father. He is our Mediator and advocate; nor is there any other name given under heaven by which we can be saved. In His name alone we call upon the Father, using no other prayers than those contained in the Holy Scriptures, or such as are in substance agreeable thereunto.
2. We believe in the Holy Spirit as the Comforter, proceeding from the Father, and from the Son; by whose inspiration we are taught to pray; being by Him renewed in the spirit of our minds; who creates us anew unto good works, and from whom we receive the knowledge of the TRUTH.
3. We believe that there is ONE holy church, comprising the whole assembly of the elect and faithful, that have EXISTED from the beginning of the world, or that shall be to the end thereof. Of this church the Lord is the Head! It is governed by his word and guided by the Holy Spirit. In the church it behooves all Christians to have fellowship. For her He [Christ] prays incessantly, and his prayer for it is most acceptable to God, without which indeed there could be NO salvation.
4. We hold that the ministers of the church ought to be Unblameable both in Life and Doctrine; and if found otherwise, that they ought to be deposed from their office, and others substituted in their stead; and that no person ought to presume to take that honor unto himself but he who is called of God as Aaron---that the duties of such are to feed the flock of God, not for filthy lucre's sake, or as having dominion over God's heritage, but as being examples to the flock, in word, in conversation, in charity, in faith, and in chastity.
5. We acknowledge, that kings, princes, and governors, are the appointed and established ministers of God, whom we are bound to obey [in all lawful and civil concerns]. For they bear the sword for the defense of the innocent, and the punishment of evildoers, for which reason we are bound to honor and pay them tribute. From this power and authority, no man can exempt himself, as is manifest from the example of the Lord Jesus Christ, who voluntarily paid tribute, not taking upon himself any jurisdiction of temporal power.
6. We believe that in the ordinance of baptism the water is the visible and external sign, which represents to us that which, by virtue of God's invisible operations, is within us---namely, the renovation of our minds, and the mortification of our members through [the faith of] Jesus Christ. And by this ordinance we are received into the holy congregation of God's people, previously professing and declaring our faith and change of life.
7. We hold that the Lord's supper is a commemoration of, and thanksgiving for, the benefits which we have received by his sufferings and death---and that it is to be received in faith and love---examining ourselves, that so we may eat of that bread and drink of that cup, as it is written in the Holy Scriptures.
Waldensians Apology (1508)
In the year 1508, about ten years before Luther began the Reformation, and during the reign of Ladislaus, king of Hungary and Bohemia, a dreadful persecution broke out against that class of his subjects, who held the principles of the Waldenses. The latter, to justify themselves from several charges erroneously imputed to them by their adversaries, drew up an apology addressed to the king, which was still extant in the time Perrin their historian.
1. It was said of them, by their Adversaries, that a man might leave his wife when he pleased. On which they reply, that "matrimony is a bond which nothing but death can dissolve, EXCEPT the crime of fornication, as saith the Lord Jesus Christ" and also the apostle Paul wrote, "Let NOT the wife depart from her husband, nor the husband put away his wife."
2. A second Calumny regards a community of goods and wives--to which they reply, "that marriage was of old ordained by God in Paradise; that it was designed as an antidote against Adultery, and it is recorded by the apostle, when speaking this subject," Let every man have his own wife, and every woman her own husband."
Also that "the husband must ought to love his wife as Christ loveth the church," and that such as are married ought to live holily together with their children in the fear of God. That as for goods, every one has possessed his own at all times in all places--they NEVER having had any such inter-community among them, as tended in the smallest degree to derogate from that lawful propriety which every one has by right to his own estate.
3. Another scandalous charge was, that they Worshiped their Barbs or Pastors. The grossness of this calumny, indeed, sufficiently refuted itself. At one time they represented as setting aside the necessity of the pastoral office altogether, and making its peculiar duties common to every member--at others they are charged with holding their pastors in such estimation, they paid Divine honors.
The Waldenses refer, on this subject, to their own writings, in which they have shown that God alone is the Object of worship, and that they NEVER intended to give to any creature. And that to their pastors, regarding them as those by whom they have heard the word of reconciliation, they consider themselves as bound to conscience and duty to treat them with Kindness, and to Esteem them in Love for their work's sake.
5. Another charge against them is, that they compelled their Pastors to follow some trade. Their answer to this is surely a very satisfactory one. " We do not think it necessary, say they, that our Pastors should work for bread. They might be better qualified to instruct us if we could maintain them without their own labor; but our poverty has no remedy. [Perrin's Hist. des Vaudois b. ch. 4 and User de Christ. Eccle. succ.et statu. 1243]
The Catholic writers frequently reproach them with making little or no account of the Pastoral office--affirming that they made the duty of preaching the gospel common to every member of the church both MALE and FEMALE. Commenius, who published a Synopsis of the disciples of the Church of Bohemia, shows that "a stated Ministry was always considered as matter of great importance among the Waldensians Churches."
Waldenses Had Women Preachers!
The Waldenses still went further in shocking old-time customs and claimed the RIGHT to Preach for "WOMEN" as well as for MEN. The Waldenses Preachers/Pastors or Barbes, were first condemned by the Pope because they were private people and laymen, NOT learned clergy. Women Preachers were NOT uncommon and they played a considerable role in Piedmont as the 14th century.
Waldensians' activity was NOT limited to the Alps-maritime region. John Bale in his catalogue mentioned some Waldensians who had begun to teach in England in (1164). Then in the summer of (1199), the bishop of Metz informed Rome that Waldensians were holding secret meetings in his diocese in which MEN and WOMEN Preached, using a French translation of the Bible.
The Vaudois, therefore, are not schematics, but continued inheritors of the Church founded by the Apostles. Very few of them were married (in the ministry); and their perpetual missions, their poverty, their missionary tours, their life always spent amidst warfare and dangers, make it easy to understand the reason of their Celibacy.
Pope Innocent III declared that secret home assemblies, unlicensed preaching, and disobedience to the command of bishops were NOT to be tolerated. By 1270, the Waldensian Preachers were gathering out disciples in various German states, Austria, Bohemia, Moravia, Hungary, and Poland. The danger for the Catholic Church was that the Bible text conveyed to the general population, by Waldeneses preachers Untrained in theology, appeared to contradict MANY of the doctrines and practices of the Catholic Church, whose clergy was NOT always highly respected.
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Post by Nathan1 on Jun 21, 2022 3:31:46 GMT
~~ Nathan1: ALL I am pointing out from John Long Journal, there are MANY the information the READERS have missed for years. They can go to John Long Journal and READ those parts and years I've posted for themselves!
Once the readers connect the dots..... then they can see the whole picture what really happened and why William Irvine wasn't a founder of anything but he founded or heard about the 2x2 workers apostolic ministry from John G. Govan founder in 1886 and He heard from the Holiness movement and they heard it from the Vaudois/Waldenses.
William Irvine borrowed the Faith Mission terminologies, workers, the friends, professing, meetings, Keswick convention set up for the 2x2 movements.... William Irvine and the 2x2s workers didn't come up with anything NEW themselves.
From: The Heroic of Men & Women for religion of Jesus Christ by James D. McCabe. (1881)
The Valleys of Piedmont: Within this little areas, scarcely larger than the District of Columbia, USA. Has existed from remote times a peculiar race of people, rarely numbering more than 20,000. The have retained their primitive appearance and manners to a greater degree than almost any other European community. They have always been noted for the simplicity and purity of their lives, and their absolute freedom from the ignorance, superstition, and vice which have cursed the countries around them.
The men are tall, well made, graceful in action, vigorous and hardly. The women are fair, endowed with a native grace and refinement, and have always been noted for their chastity and modest deportment. Both sexes are frank, hospitable, peaceful, and forbearing in disposition. Soon after the introduction of Christianity into Italy by the Apostles, the people of these valleys became converts to the faith preached by Paul the apostle. They accepted and taught the doctrines of the Apostles, and practiced the simple rites or usages as described by Justin or Tellurian. They acknowledge the Holy Scriptures as their sole rule of faith, and rejected all that was not taught in the books of the New Testament.
From the days of Constantine (the Roman Emperor who became a Christian) to the present time, they have never changed their faith, and have never altered in any important particular their religious observances. The Vaudois themselves called themselves only by the name of Christians. They were required to commit to memory the Gospels of Matthew and John, the general epistles, and a part of those of Paul.
They were instructed, moreover, during two or three successive winters, and trained to speak in Latin, and in Italian. They were supported by voluntary contributions of the believers. One part was given to the ministers, once to the poor, and the third was reserved for the missionaries of the Church. These missionaries always Went Forth Two and Two, to wit, a young man and old one. The latter was the Regidor, and his COMPANION the Coadjutor.
They traveled to Italy, where they had stations organized in many places, and secret adherents in almost all the towns. Each minister was required to become a missionary in his turn. The younger ones were thus initiated into the delicate duties of evangelization--each of them being under the experienced guidance of a man of years, who according to the discipline of his church, was his superior, and whom he was bound to obey in everything as a matter of duty, and not merely out of deference. The Old man, on his part, thus made his preparation for repose, by training for the Church Successors worthy of it and of himself. His task being accomplished, he could die in peace, with consolatory assurance of having Committed the Sacred Trust of the Gospel into Prudent and Zealous hands. Their maintenance of the absolute authority of the Word of God, and of the doctrine of Salvation by Jesus Christ.
The Vaudois, therefore, are not schematics, but continued inheritors of the Church founded by the Apostles. Very few of them were married (in the ministry); and their perpetual missions, their poverty, their missionary tours, their life always spent amidst warfare and dangers, make it easy to understand the reason of their Celibacy.
In the annual synod (special gatherings), which was held in the Valleys, inquiry was made concerning the conduct of the ministers and changes of residence were made amongst them. Those actually employed in the ministry were changed from place to place every three years---two of them always exchanging places with another, except the aged men, who were no longer removed. The Vaudois were bound to visit the sick; they admonished those who behaved ill, and if remonstrance's produced no effect, they went to length of Excommunication; but it was very rare.
Their preaching, catechizing, and other exercise of instruction and devotion, were generally similar to those of reformed Churches, except that the worshippers pronounced, with a low voice, the prayer which preceded and that which followed the sermon. They Vaudois likewise had hymns, which they only sung in private, and which, moreover, agrees with what we know of the customs of the primitive Church. Their doctrines were equally analogous, or rather were remarkably identical with those of the Apostolic times, and of the earliest fathers of the Church.
They may be briefly summed up in these few words: The absolute authority and inspiration of the Bible-- The Trinity, the Godhead---- The sinful state of man--- Free Salvation by Jesus Christ--- But above all, Faith working by Love. Their missionaries were everywhere, proclaiming the SIMPLE truths of Christianity, and stirring the hearts of men and women to their very Depths. In Hungary, in Bohemia, in France, in England, in Scotland, as well in Italy, they were working with tremendous, through Silent power. Such was the organization, and such were the doctrines of the Apostolic Church of the Valleys of Piedmont.
~~ The Vaudois/Waldenses teaching/belief: The Pilgrim Church by E. H. Broadbent
Sending forth the Vaudois/apostles preachers into the world. Two callings: Apostles and Disciples.
Some among the brethren devoted themselves entirely to traveling and ministering the Word and were called "the Perfect" and in accordance with the Lord's word in (Matthew 19:21) "If thou will be Perfect, go and SELL that thou has, and give to the poor, and thou shall have treasures in heaven, and come and follow me." The apostles or the Perfect "Possess nothing," they had NO homes, and Literally Acted upon this command.
It was recognize that ALL believers are NOT call to such a path, and that the MAJORITY of believers, while acknowledge that they and ALL belong to Christ, should serve Him while "Remaining" in their families and continuing their usual occupations.
Those whom they called "Apostles" played an important part in their testimony. While the elders of the churches and believers "Remained" in their homes, the "Apostles" traveled continually, visiting the churches. A distinction was made between those called to be Apostles or Perfect, and others followers of Christ, based on the fact that in the Gospel some were called to SELL ALL that they had and follow Christ, while others of His disciples were equally called to serve Him in the surroundings in which He found them.
The Vaudois/Waldensian Apostles had NO property or goods or home or family; if they HAD these they left them. Their life was one of self-denial, hardship and danger. They traveled in utmost simplicity, without money, without second suit, their needs being supplied by the "Believers" among whom they ministered the Word.
They Always go Two and Two, an elder and a younger man, of whom the latter waited on his older companion. (no need for theological training since the younger companion gets on-the-job training guidance from the older companion and the Holy Spirit). No need for seminary school since the Holy Spirit is the only Teacher they need. Their visits were highly esteemed, and they were treated with every token of respect and affection. They NEVER ask for anything; indeed, many undertook serious medical studies that they might be able to care for the bodies of those they met with. The Name "Friends of God" was often given to them.
They were required to commit to memory the Gospels of Matthew and John, the general epistles, and a part of those of Paul. They were instructed, moreover, during two or three successive winters, and trained to speak in Latin, and in Italian. They were supported by voluntary contributions of the believers. One part was given to the ministers, once to the poor, and the third was reserved for the missionaries of the Church. These missionaries always Went Forth Two and Two, a young man and old one. The latter was the Regidor, and his COMPANION the Coadjutor.
They traveled to Italy, where they had stations organized in many places, and secret adherents in almost all the towns. Each minister was required to become a missionary in his turn. The younger ones were thus initiated into the delicate duties of evangelization--each of them being under the experienced guidance of a man of years, who according to the discipline of his church, was his superior, and whom he was bound to obey in everything as a matter of duty, and not merely out of deference.
The Older man, on his part, thus made his preparation for repose, by training for the Church Successors worthy of it and of himself. His task being accomplished, he could die in peace, with consolatory assurance of having Committed the Sacred Trust of the Gospel into Prudent and Zealous hands. Their maintenance of the absolute authority of the Word of God, and of the doctrine of Salvation by Jesus Christ.
The Vaudois, therefore, are not schematics, but continued inheritors of the Church founded by the Apostles. Very few of them were married (in the ministry); and their perpetual missions, their poverty, their missionary tours, their life always spent amidst warfare and dangers, make it easy to understand the reason of their Celibacy. In the annual synod (special gatherings), which was held in the Valleys, inquiry was made concerning the conduct of the ministers and changes of residence were made amongst them.
Those actually employed in the ministry were changed from place to place every three years---two of them always exchanging places with another, except the aged men, who were no longer removed. The Vaudois were bound to visit the sick; they admonished those who behaved ill, and if remonstrance's produced no effect, they went to length of Excommunication; but it was very rare.
The "Brethren", themselves, were great preachers, for there had always been amongst them missionary preachers, called "apostles," simply meaning thereby, "Person Sent." These apostles went out TWO and TWO, generally an older and a younger man. When they reached a house of a "Brother," they were lodged and fed gladly, for all the "Brethren" were taught that God was pleased, if His messengers were lovingly welcome in his name. Many of these preachers were students of medicine, and, therefore, their journey from land to land were what we should call a "medical mission." But, the object was the SOUL. And, faithfully, bravely, and diligently did they give themselves up to this great and blessed work.
For a time, Waldo devoted himself to the study of the Scriptures and then (1180) gave himself to traveling and preaching taking as the Lord's words, "He sent His disciples "Two and Two." Therefore, Jesus said unto them: "Pray, ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that He would send forth laborers into His harvest." Companions joined Peter Waldo, traveling and preaching in this way, came to be known as the "Poor men of Lyons" Their appeal for recognition (1179) to the third Lateran Council, under the Pope Alexander III, had already ben scornfully refused. They were driven out of Lyons, France by Imperial edict and (1184) excommunicated. Scattered over the surrounding countries, their preaching proved very effectual and "Poor men of Lyons" became one of the many names attached to those who follow Christ and His teaching.
The relations of Peter Waldo with the Waldenses were so intimate that many call him the "Founder" of a sect of that name, though others derive the name from the Alpine valleys, Vallenses, in which so many of those believers lived. It is true that Peter Waldo was highly esteemed among them, but "NOT" possible that he should have been their founder, since the found their faith and practice on the scriptures and were followers of those who from the earliest times had done the same. For outsiders to give them the name of a man "prominent" among them was only to follow the usual habit of their "opponents" who did not like to admit their right to call themselves, as they did, "Christians" or "Brethen."
Belief, doctrines, and practices of the Vaudois/Waldensians:
The doctrines and practices of the of these brethen, known as Vaudois or Waldenses and also by other names, were of such a character that it is evident they were NOT fruits of an effort to reform the Roman Catholic Greek Orthodox churches and bring them back to more Scripture ways. Bearing no traces of the influences of those the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches, they indicate, on the contrary, the "Continuance" of an old tradition, handed down from quite another source---the teaching of Scripture and the practice of the primitive Church.
The Vaudois or Waldenses are, in fact descended from those refugees from Italy, who after Paul the apostle had there preached the Gospel, abandoned their beautiful country and fled, like the woman mentioned in Revelation, chapter 12, to these wild mountains (Swiss, Alps) where they have this day handed down the Gospel, from father to son, in the same purity and simplicity as it was preached by Paul. Their existence proves that there "Has Always" been men of faith, men of spiritual power and understanding, who had maintained in the churches a tradition close to that of Apostolic days, and far removed from that which the dominant Churches.
Apart from the Holy Scriptures they had no special confession of Faith or religion, nor any rules, and no authority of any man, however, eminent, was allowed to set aside the authority scripture. Yet, throughout the centuries, and in all countries, they confessed the same truths, and had the same practices. They valued Christ's own words, in the Gospels, as being the highest revelation, and, if ever they were unable to reconcile any of His words with other portions of Scripture, while they accepted all, they acted on what seemed to them the plain meaning of the Gospels.
Following Christ was their chief theme and aim, keeping His words, imitating His example. The Spirit of Christ, they said, is effective in any man in the measure in which he obeys the words of Christ and is His true follower. It is only Christ who can give the ability to understand His words. If anyone loves Him, he will "Keep" His words.
A few great truths were looked upon as essential to fellowship, but, otherwise, in matters open to doubt or to difference of view, large liberty was allowed. They maintained that the inner testimony of the indwelling Spirit of Christ is of great importance, since the highest truths come from the heart and mind; NOT that new revelation is given, but a "Clearer" understanding of the Word. They "DO NOT" build churches buildings.
In order, they said, to learn the mind of Christ, and to Understand His desires for His Church, it is needful to go back to the teachings of Christ and His apostles. They said also that it is an error to "suppose" that the direction given in the New Testament for Christian worship and were only fitted for those times.
On the contrary, they were to hold good even to the "END" for God changes "NOT," and He rules percepts which needed "NO" change to make them suitable for following ages. We do "NOT" find that they ever built churches, or places of worship, without attaching to it some such house. And, more frequently, the "house of God's poor" was their ONLY meeting-place. For they said the temple of God is His people.
The Vaudois apostles preached wherever they "Could," generally in the open air. They had also prayer meetings and Bible reading in private houses. We find that among the all the "Brethen" in whatever country they might be, they were regular in the habit of daily family prayers, and of giving of thanks before their meals. They went, from time to time, with their neighbors to the services in the churches, but though this was not against their conscience, it was against their inclination.
In those days, when the magnificent cathedrals of Europe were rising in all their glory from among the dark and narrow streets, the "Brethen" turned AWAY and said, "The Lord dwells in temples made with hands, for we are the living temple in whom God the Spirit dwells." They build for themselves simple and modest houses of prayer," and refuges for the poor adjoining. They sang no masses. They said, "For Christ has promised that where 2 or 3 gathered together in His name there is He; and where He is, there is solemn sense of His presence, and there is comfort, strength and joy."
They ate together the Lord's Supper, taking each one both Bread and the Wine. They said that the Supper was a remembrance of Him who became the Bread of Life for His own, whose body was broken on the Cross. And, it should remind us also, said they, that we are one body in Him, that we should be ready to lay down our lives for the brethen loving one another as He has loved us.
The true explanation of the darkness of those ages, in which the despised brethen shone as lights in the world. Without Creeds, or catechisms, scattered abroad from Spain to Hungary, from Calabria to England, from Provence to Eastern Prussia, their faith was one and the same, their teaching all alike---for their one authority was the Word of God. Human learning, they said, could add nothing to God's teachings.
For did He not choose and send forth fishermen and working men, armed only with His power and wisdom? And, was not that the time when He was not most glorified before men? And, was it not, because men fell away from the teaching of these apostles, that ruin, and misery, and darkness came upon the Churches in Asia, Europe, and Africa? Therefore, said they, "Let our objection to go "BACK" to the days of the apostles and draw from the fountain head, rather than from the polluted streams."
Wrote one of the inquisitors, "These heretics teach, that they had no science, learned and taught, "nothing but the Bible." One of the judges said, "All of them, men and women, great and small, by day and night, never cease learning or teaching the Bible." As early as 1203 A.D. they had translated parts of the Bible into Germans, and so in other countries, otherwise this universal study of the Bible would, of course, have been impossible.
There is a sad side to this bright picture, and to trace back the cause of it we also must go to the Word of God. We read there that even in the days of Paul the apostle, "Many" had turned aside from the "Truth" that he taught, and he foretold that in this respect, matter would wax worse and worse, that men should turn away their ears from the teachings of the apostles of their Lord, and give heed to those who would want to add to the Gospel (II Timothy 3:1-11).
And, so it came to pass, that long before the first flight of the ancestors of the Vaudois or Waldenses to the mountain Valleys of Alps in Switzerland, the blessed Gospel of the Lord was but "Half" believed among the most enlightened. They had forgotten the great and wonderful teachings of Paul, and understood but little what they remembered.
They went back to the days before the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus, not seeing that as the seal upon this blessed work, God was calling out from all nations those who should be joined to Christ in heaven by the Holy Ghost, to be "One" body---the Body of Christ.
They said, "We must receive the Spirit, to dwell in us, before the image of God can be restored in our souls. We learned the way of God by the written Word, and the inner Word, namely, the Spirit, but not by gifts supposed to be handed down in the church nor by ordinances and ceremonies. The Church, or the Assembly, is only so far a mean of intercourse with God, as it is the "Possessor" and "Keeper" of the written word, and the habitation of the Holy Ghost."
Those Vaudois "Brethen," had NO images, and though they had a reverence for the saints of old, they did NOT worship them. A man communication with God, and holding the faith once delivered to the Saints, is the true "Successor" of the apostles, and such persons, meeting together, have "Authority" to exercise discipline in the church.
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Post by Nathan1 on Jun 21, 2022 3:34:22 GMT
Part V
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Post by Nathan1 on Jun 21, 2022 3:34:39 GMT
1/2018 Gill said: Was there an effort to remove trinitarian hymns from the book? And possibly a chance to add more hymns. There were some trinity hymns from the 1951 book that were removed in 1987. Cease not to praise Him, the Father and Son. And Holy Spirit and THESE THREE ARE ONE...remember that hymn??
After the hymn book was published in 1987, you had the mess of excommunication 1990 in Alaska the senior worker, Truitt Oyler for teaching Jesus is God. A brother worker in North Dakota says that there is a doctrine in the world where people believe that the Father and Son are one being. He said it is false doctrine. He went on to say that the devil doesn't like submission.
*** Nathan1: There are some churches/denominations= Oneness Pentecostal teaches God the Father, Christ and Holy Spirit are one being. The early church fathers in the end of the 1-2 century, came up with the word TRINITY to describe the Godhead= God the Father, Christ the Lord God Savior and the Holy Spirit. These three Supreme beings are separated but ONE in Unity and Mind. In the 4th century they became the official Romans Catholic/Universal Church. They began to add many pagans belief to the original church fathers teachings so the Trinity looks more like pagans heresy.
The 2x2 early workers, William Irvine, John Long, Jack Carroll, and so on taught and believed in the TRINITY, the Triune God; Jesus is God, the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Then in 1960s things began to change among the west coast overseers in USA. It seemed they didn't have a good understanding of the early church fathers belief in the Trinity teaching. They got the Roman Catholics church pagans trinity additions teachings mixed in the pot.
So, the overseers decided to warn and excommunicate Truitt, Walter and John S. From the ministry for preaching the Roman Catholic church heresy of the Trinity. These 3 men allowed to preach again but they must NOT teach or mention about the Trinity or Jesus is God.
In 1987 when the NEW hymn books came out the overseers deleted many old hymns which mentioned the Trinity teachings three are one or Jesus is the Lord or God. 1990 the overseers told Truitt to leave Alaska for teaching the RCC teachings again. They sent or scattered many workers on Alaska staff to different states because of Truitt's influences teachings rubbed on them.
The overseers lacking in understanding of the Godhead in the early church fathers belief and concept of the Trinity. The overseers have added many false teachings like Jesus is NOT God. We worship the Father ONLY and NOT the Son. The word God refers ONLY to the Father and NOT the Christ/Son. The overseers and current workers have added more into the pot of confusion for the last 50 yrs. The list goes on and because they don't fully understand there is ONE Godhead= Father, Christ and Holy Spirit.
The ex-overseers, the senior workers have passed on the anti-Trinity teachings for years now... What they don't realize is they are teaching a DIFFERENT Jesus. Like the Jehovah Witnesses belief we worship ONLY God the Father/Jehovah and NOT Jesus because he is NOT God
Most of the early 2x2 workers WI, John Long, George Walker, Willie Jamieson, many seniors and some current senior workers believe and taught the Trinity, The Divinity of Jesus, Jesus is God (the Son NOT God the Father). However, there were/are 2x2 workers and friends do NOT understand it within the fellowship through the years also. Here are some examples of both groups of 2x2 workers on the Trinity and non-Trinity belief.
1) Moline wrote: Hi Nathan, We as earthly beings find this difficult to comprehend however the bible makes it clear. I have never have heard a worker handle the Deity of Christ well, yet in the early days of the movement, Eddie Cooney and William Irvine clearly believed in a Triune God. It seems that over the years, one would assume, because of a LACK of sound doctrinal teaching, many basics of the scripture are NOT well understood by the Current 2x2s leaderships and the friends.
Nathan1: Hi Moline, Yes I agree with you. I first heard Jesus is Jehovah God from Leo Stancliff (2x2) worker on the island of Guam in 1978. I wish all of the friends and workers today would take the time to study in depth about the Godhead so they can teach others about the Deity of Christ and Jesus is the Jehovah God because that's one of the most important foundations of Christianity teaching and beliefs.
Jesus Is the Lord and God. Here are the Names of 2x2s workers who have taught Jesus is God listed by ex-workers and friends heard them preached. Jesus is God (the Son) NOT God the Father.
Jesus Christ the Son of God NOT God the Father. William Irvine, Eddy Cooney, John Long, George Walker, Jack Carroll, Dave Christie, Tom Lyness, Tharold Sylvester, Leo Stancliff, Mable Gibson, Leslie White, Stan Chamberlain, Maurice Close, John Sterling, Everett Blair, John Wegter, Lyle Shoeber, Everett Swanson, Mark Huddle, Alan Richardson, etc.
RossB wrote: Nathan1 - if the first workers didn't believe in the Trinity there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY they would have included the last verse of "Our blest Redeemer" in the first Go-Preachers hymn book of 1909.
First and last verses of the hymn:
1 Our blest Redeemer, ere He breathed
His tender, last farewell,
A Guide, a Comforter bequeathed
With us to dwell.
6 O praise the Father; praise the Son:
Blest Spirit, praise to Thee:
All praise to God, the three in One,
The One in Thee.
If most of them didn't believe in the Trinity in 1951 the "Cease not to praise God would not have been included". But between 1951 belief in God as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit diminished as the early workers died out and by 1987 the vast, vast majority had elevated Jesus' humanity at the expense of His divinity.
"Cease not to praise God" was dumped and "Christ, my God" was changed to "Christ, my Lord" in the hymn we know well. And not surprisingly from the mid 1980's the group has been in serious decline - people are not only leaving because of major deceitfulness over the history of the group but because of poor doctrine.
While the early workers differentiated themselves from established churches and ministers on Matt 10, the claim to apostleship, baptism, "Jesus was a common man" they accepted core Christian doctrine including the Trinity. There was absolutely no issue with it. When these leaders died out and were replaced by others, belief in the one God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit was gradually abandoned, as evidenced by the change in hymns between the 1951 and 1987 books.
Barry Barkley, the overseer back east coast of USA is clearly trying to address this issue. If the 2x2 church can't get basic doctrine right on who Jesus is, there is not much hope for it in my opinion.
John Long's Journal in 1899 wrote:
William Irvine's Doctrines & Leaderships: "Concerning the principals of the Doctrine of Christ, he [Wm Irvine] was sound. He believed in the fall of man, in the Atonement, in the Trinity, in the Divinity of our Lord, in the immortality of the soul, in the resurrection of the body, the inspiration of the Bible, in Heaven for the saved, and in Hell for the lost.
He believed in a personal Devil, the enemy of God and man. He believed and taught Repentance and that every person can be saved and know it, and that the conditions of Salvation were "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9.
He taught that every saved soul is indwelt by the Spirit of Christ; and that the life of Jesus, is the pattern for everyone to imitate and follow; and that the life of forsaking all for Christ's sake was the best to live. The fruits of that teaching resulted in farmers, shop keepers, domestic servants, school teachers, police, soldiers, and persons of every occupation forsaking all that they had to follow Jesus; and to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God."
"In either secular or religious matters, he was a born leader of men; he was a holy man, and practical. In personal dealing, he was preeminently the best conversationalist I ever met, and skillful in soul winning. He had a marvelous insight into the deep things of God's word, and like his Master, was an apt teacher of all who received the truth with pleasure. He always set forth the cross, and was a swift witness against all pride, vainglory and hypocrisy; he was severe on Christians, but merciful to sinners. In prayer, praise, and preaching he excelled in joy, liberty, and power. He was very much opposed and misunderstood by religious people; nevertheless, the common people liked him and heard him gladly." (From: John Long's Journal)
~~ Nathan1: These are the names of the Old days workers and current workers belief on Jesus is God/Lord, the I AM that I AM.
~~ Leo Stancliff: Jesus is the Lord Yahweh.
~~ Carson Cowan: related he heard George Walker teach the Father, Son and Holy Ghost was like a shamrock, Three in one.
~~ John Wegter: Jesus is the Lord.
~~ Everett Swanson: Jesus is the I AM that I AM.
~~ Mark Huddle: Jesus is 100% God and 100% human. (Walla Walla, convention 1984)
Greg L. (ex-worker 1990s) wrote: I cannot recall anyone preaching on God the Son. The closest I heard was one who said Jesus is to God as a bottle of ocean water is to the ocean. As I have stated before, I think if George Walker believed in God the Son he kept it out of his preaching and perhaps rarely shared such with any. As big an impact as he had, if he preached it, others would be preaching the same. The Triune God might be foundational for Christian churches, but it is not for the F&W; fellowship.
~~ Dennis Jacobsen. (ex-worker in 1960s) wrote: Hello Greg. According to Carson Cowan speaking at a convention decades ago, George walker DID teach his companions that God was like a shamrock, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost one, yet all God. According to reports I have heard he did teach this in sermons. And no, I had no reason upon hearing it to document it for it is specifically what Jack Carroll and many others taught and believed. Somewhere in my records once was a copy of Jack's sermon notes, where proof was found of his preaching Godhead exists as Father Son and Holy Ghost.
In every mission from my first, I would point to Jesus as the Word and He existed from the moment GOD first "spoke" later becoming the word made flesh. NEVER ONCE was I corrected for teaching that. NOT ONCE. Also I taught over simplifying there is the Divine Kingdom, Angelic/spirit/demon kingdom, human kingdom, that God Son became human Son of God. Never corrected for that neither though having "Gospel meetings" with about 14 assigned companions, in various states and a couple of countries.
Nathan1, sir. On this topic, from what you have expressed, I find myself totally in agreement from nearly 72 years (+ circa 40 due to heritage). Greg, sir. More than "likely so." It came as a shock to me to discover 2&2 preachers and their followers anywhere did not believe as I had been taught, and indeed was one of the things I had to re-examine upon my excommunication. My early contacts and instructors in 2&2 ism simply did believe as Nathan expresses, and many of their names were on the first group of worker listing.
Do I accept others came along, not believing it? Most absolutely. Do I believe it unfair to state Nathan1 to be in error regarding it? Equally most absolutely. On this understanding of the nature and personality of God, a supreme being (to me anyway) I once had a copy of Jack Carroll's sermon notes, revealing to me he believed on this subject as Nathan1 expresses. I knew Tom Lyness believed this, I knew Willie Wier believed this, I knew Mable Gibson believed and taught it.
2) Jack Carroll ( ex-overseer in Oregon, USA) - Sidney, Manitoba Convention - Monday Evening, November 9, 1914 "God is a trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Man is a trinity: body, soul, and spirit."
3) George Walker (1899 worker) www.trutharchive.net/george-walker---mccordsville-indiana---september-6-1975
You can't separate between the three persons in the Trinity because they are all one. They are used in this language to help our finite minds to understand Christ, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit suggests what a mother does for her children. He says, "When they put me on the cross, I will send the Holy Spirit, and He will be in you, teaching you, comforting you, and will be all that a mother could be to you. He can be closer to you than I can be in the flesh." God has made us in three parts, too. We say it is the body, soul, and the spirit. The Bible says sanctify spirit, soul, and body. The spirit is the part that God breathed in. You can't separate them.
4) Sam Charlton - The Word of God - Tacoma, Washington - 1958
God is a trinity and man is a trinity - body, soul, and spirit. It has been very wisely planned by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in Heaven. They had a private conference and the subject was, “Let us create man in Our image and in Our Likeness.”
5) Leslie White (ex-overseer from Colorado, USA) 1st Oak Lodge Convention - Sunday morning, 2005
"One of the great mysteries that we have in our country and some of our Friends have been silly enough to have got involved in it, and that is that some try to explain the Trinity - The Father, Son and Holy Ghost, nobody can explain or understand that; none of us can understand that.
No one can really, fully understand that, but we believe in those three and that they are one, but He is with God. He is God; He's not man; He's not an Angel; He's God-kind. He's like His Father; He's the Son. Just like a natural boy is like his dad, but he's not the dad, but he's got those qualities. He's God the Son; God the Father and God the Holy Ghost. "
6) Elizabethcoleman said: 9/1/2015 This might do a few heads in: I have this from a recent convention attendee...
"Barry Barkley (Overseer of overseers in the east coast of USA) emphasized that Jesus was fully God but came to earth to become human to enable the lowly sinners such as ourselves to be justified through Him and be with Him in heaven. Barry spoke of the relationship between "God the Father and God the Son." He tied Psalm 22 -- the prophesied words and experience of Jesus -- with passages in the New Testament.
These thoughts, perhaps, are nothing "new" to the Bible-believing Christian, but I appreciated the spirit and illumination with which Barry presented elements of our hope in the gospel -- and our need and joyous privilege to make Christ the focal point of all our living." If you now have workers talking this way about God the Son, and Jesus being fully God, where does that leave F&W who strenuously oppose these "doctrines"?
7) RossB wrote: 8/20/2020
I don't know of any New Testament writer who didn't believe that Jesus was a man - clearly, he was a man - not just any regular man, but the Son of Man. However, if a person reads ALL of the gospel of Matthew, they'll see clearly that Jesus is Lord and the Son of the Living God and is worshipped as Lord. The demons clearly knew who He was.
But all of this is not an issue of any significance in the 2x2 church. Workers and friends the world over have zero doubt about both the pre-existence of Christ (as the eternal Son) and the divinity/divine nature of Christ when on earth. Since the late 1960's and emanating from the west coast of the US/Canada, most of them have baulked at, or rejected, Jesus being God - the Son, but they have never denied His pre-existence or divinity/divine nature.
Some senior workers are trying to straighten things out. The current Overseer of Colorado, Titus Lehmann, made quite an impact at the 2016 Mudgee Convention in New South Wales, Australia when he said "It is hard to understand how Jesus is God but is also the Son of God.
In Paul’s letter to the Colossians it states in Chapter 2:2 (KJV) ‘That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ’. This is a mystery that we can’t fully understand or explain. In Isaiah 9:6 we are told more about Jesus; ‘For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace’.
Of course, a couple of workers in New South Wales had tied themselves in knots by denying the divinity/divine nature of our Lord so Titus' intervention was timely and I know from talking to a few elders about it, made quite an impact. But as I said, the pre-existence of Christ or His divine nature have never been rejected at all by the workers or friends so their beliefs are radically different to what you (fixit, 2x2 elder) believe and promote on TMB.
"Christ is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs" Hebrews 1:3-4.
I think God the Son is a useful expression for clarifying understanding.... most workers and friends will not accept that Jesus is God or God the Son. I have spoken to many New South Wales workers who absolutely deny that Jesus is God or God the Son or part of the Godhead....although many would say he is divine? One senior worker I asked said "of course, he believed in the Trinity" so I then asked "Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God but also God the Son". He said "we definitely don't believe the latter..." and the conversation moved on.
Having said that I believe that a few workers believe in the Trinity and the Godhead of Jesus. I have only heard the word Trinity mentioned once at Convention by a Canadian worker (Maurice or Morris???) in the 1990's at Silverdale Convention, Sydney. A US worker apparently spoke at a Sydney convention two years ago about the Holy Spirit being the third person of the Godhead and David Saunders apparently referred to Jesus as the great "I am" at this year's Sydney Convention. Generally, it is ridiculed as a Catholic doctrine... whereas in reality it is a core Christian doctrine.
~~ Dan wrote: The trinity seems like a simple concept to grasp, its simply, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" (1 John 5:7). They comprise 3 aspects of a single Godhead, each with a specific purpose but unified as one. The Father is all knowledge, the Son is the expression and manifestation, and the Spirit is the action and deed. The 3 are united persona's of one entity, each is distinct, and yet all are one. When Jesus was born of woman, he was separated from divine providence, but completely surrendered his will as a man for the will of the Father. It was necessary for a part of God to be perfected in the flesh in order to atone for man, it could not be righteous redemption any other way.
The danger in thinking Jesus was just flesh and blood is denying his divinity, and he'd have no authority to save anyone without that. What comprises the Godhead is God, if Christ was not one with the Father and Holy Spirit, there would be no salvation. That's why we are baptized in the name of all 3, born of the Spirit, the living water, and the sacrifice, the "three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one" (1 John 5:8). I think we've discussed this subject to death, but one Father expressed through Christ and empowered by the HS. No separation, no opposition, no contradiction, but one in singularity, purpose, and existence. Just as your body, soul, and spirit are you, Christ, the Father, and Spirit are God.
~~ Nathan1: Most of the workers and the friends today! do NOT use the word Trinity in the gospel or Sunday worship meetings but they PREACH and TEACH the concept of the Trinity; Jesus is the Son of God, His Divinity or Jesus came down from heaven and he creator of all things. They pray to the Holy Spirit and God the Father in their Sunday morning fellowship gathering.
MOST of The workers and the friends today, do NOT use the word Trinity because they had been taught INCORRECTLY by the workers in 1960s that TRINITY doctrine is RCC invention doctrine and that is FALSE so, don't BELIEVE or TEACH it. The early 2x2 workers believed/taught the Trinity, the Deity of Christ, Jesus is God NOT the Father but the Son. Someone wrote: Triune God. It's like laundry detergent with softer, detergent and oxi in it! ha! Get more for your money with a 3 in 1 product!
Dan Hilton was a senior worker in Washington State and California, USA. He was on Calf. and Washington State staff for many years... This is what Dan Hilton preached/taught for many years when I was in living in Washington State. The workers on the staff just passed on what they heard from the Senior workers had taught them through the years without doing a serious study themselves...
The word Trinity was NOT in the Bible, but the concept of the Trinity-Triune God is mentioned from Genesis to Revelation. It was the 2nd generation of the apostles who coined or came up with the word Trinity and Triune God to describe the Godhead.
Dan Hilton
The word Trinity is not found in the Bible. It is a Catholic doctrine that wasn't even mentioned by the early Christians. It wasn't heard of until the second century.
[Washington 1985]
Dan Hilton
Beware of the devilish doctrine of the Trinity.
[Manhattan MT Conv 1996]
Who is Jesus Christ??? -- According to Willis Propp!
April 12, 1992
Question from Dale - OK, may I ask you this question tonight? Now, that is one of the basic fundamentals that you believe that we have to understand, because there are other Jesus' and if we believe that “Jesus was God” that would be incorrect?
The reply from Willis Propp, (“Head Worker” of the Province of Alberta, Canada) in his own words.
Reply from Willis - The Catholics think they're one person, like the rosary prayer is holy Mary mother of God, holy Mary mother of God, and that is wrong because Jesus is not God. Jesus was the Son of God. John 8 says, I proceeded forth and came from God, I proceeded forth from God so He was the only begotten Son of the Father. He wasn't God, He was the Son of God.
Reply from Willis - Yes, if you look at the original of John 1:1 it says he was a god. He was divine. You cannot reconcile a father and a son as one person, you can’t do that.
- - -COMMENT- - -
Comment: Son of God – son of man
Mr. Propp states “He (Jesus) wasn't God, He was the Son of God.”
So, let us reason together: If a man has a son, is that son any less human than his father? NO! If the Father (who is God) has a Son, is that Son any less God than His Father? NO!
Another Comment: God plus a god?
Mr. Propp states, “…if you look at the original of John 1:1, it says he was a god.”
~~ Nathan1: Reading Willis P. answers who is Jesus Christ? He doesn't have a complete picture of Who Jesus is. The word God/Elohim is plural (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). The word God/Elohim refers to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The RCC does NOT teach the Father and the Son are ONE person, that is Oneness Pentecostal church belief. The Father God/El is Singular. Christ is God/EL also. Both speaking together = the Word God/Elohim becomes Plural.
Willis P. does NOT know or understand what the doctrine of the Trinity is. Jesus was NOT a (small g) god. He was God like His Father.
Here is an article written by John Wegter when he was a 2x2 worker: John has a clear understanding the Word God refers to the Father AND Jesus (2005).
Isaiah 9:6 "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Isaiah 7:14. "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel." (Immanuel means "God with us.")
The scriptures contain many names and titles given to the Lord Jesus, such as the ones included in these verses. The more we understand the many aspects of His nature and the unique roles that He plays in the experience of mankind, the better we can glorify Him, as He so richly deserves. The better we know Him, the more we love and appreciate Him for who He is in His infinite, eternal, divine nature as well as for the greatness of the work He has accomplished.
As a child growing up with constant exposure to God's word and the message of the Lord Jesus, I most often thought of Him as the Son of God, since that is a description that the scripture often uses to refer to Him. As years passed, however, I began to see that at times the scriptures refer to Jesus simply as "God" -- as in the above verses from Isaiah -- instead of "Son of God". This seemed a paradox, and is a point of great confusion for people who persist in thinking according to the familiar human patterns.
We find it hard to understand how someone could ever be both God and God's Son at the same time. However, the infinity of God's nature is definitely not limited as our human mind is limited. As we open ourselves to His guidance and teaching, His Spirit enables us to see beyond what the human spirit can perceive. "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." (John 4:24) It helps us to grasp more about God when we understand that "God" is not necessarily used as a proper name denoting one particular individual as we think of individuals, but is rather one particular spirit or nature.
For this reason that "God" can refer not only to the eternal Father, but also to His Son, our Lord Jesus. Again, we need to lay aside human thinking patterns as we contemplate the unique nature of the Lord Jesus. Though He was conceived miraculously in the womb of His virgin mother by the Holy Spirit, He was not half-human, half-divine, as we would normally think of human beings that possess a part of their father's nature and a part of their mother's. Jesus was all divine, possessing all of the nature of His Father, as well as being all human, possessing all of our nature.
Several scriptures help us understand this truth: "In Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form." (Colossians 2:9) "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness." (Philippians 2:6-7) "He had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people." (Hebrews 2:17)
Because the Lord Jesus possesses all the nature of His Father, the scriptures call Him God as well as Son of God. Here are a few examples: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. " (John 1:1, 14)
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true -- even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. (1 John 5:20) About the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever." (Hebrews 1:8) The Old Testament in the original Hebrew language frequently uses a unique, unpronounceable name of God, YHWH.
This name was considered so sacred that when the scriptures were read, the Jewish readers did not even attempt to pronounce the name, but instead substituted the word "Adonai", which means "Lord". This practice carried over into the New Testament; the writers who cited scriptures from the Old Testament wrote "Kurios", the Greek equivalent of "Adonai" ("Lord"), instead of the unpronounceable sacred name. The translators of most English versions of the Bible have chosen to translate YHWH as "LORD", written with four capital letters to differentiate it from "lord" and "Lord", words which denote "owner" or "master" (either human or divine) instead of the unique sacred name.
The point of all this is that a number of times where we read "LORD" in the Old Testament, it is making direct reference to Jesus instead of God the Father. See the following examples: "My eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty." (Isaiah 6:5) Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him. (John 12:41) "You, O LORD, sit enthroned forever; your renown endures through all generations." (Psalm 102:12) (Hebrews 1:8,) which we have already quoted, assures us that this psalm is speaking of the Son. "
'The days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness.'" (Jeremiah 23:5-6) All of these verses and a number of others show us that our Lord Jesus is, along with His Father, the LORD of the Old Testament, the one who is proclaimed to be the only true God. "All kingdoms on earth may know that you alone, O LORD, are God." (2 Kings 19:19)
When God appeared to Moses in the burning bush, He identified Himself in a unique way: "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" (Exodus 3:14) The Lord Jesus used this same phrase to identify Himself to the Jews in His day: "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I AM!' (John 8:58) While the English grammar may not convey the distinction as clearly as the original languages, it was very clear to the Jews that heard Him that He was identifying Himself with God, the eternal I AM, and because of this supposed blasphemy, they picked up stones to stone Him, just as they did when He proclaimed, "I and the Father are one."
(John 10:30) True believers, however, see that, far from usurping God's name, power, and authority, Jesus, being God in very nature, deserves our honor, worship, and praise just as the Father does. "All may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him." (John 5:23) It mentioning that when we say Jesus is God or that Father and Son are one, we are not saying that Jesus is the Father or that they are only one person.
They are one in the sense that they are perfectly united in nature, in spirit, in purpose, in love, in power, and in every other way. The nature of their unity is made clear in Jesus' prayer to His Father before the crucifixion. "Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name -- the name you gave me -- so that they may be one as we are one... that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me." (John 17:11, 21-23) Just as God's people can by His Spirit be perfectly united with each other while remaining distinct persons, so it is with the Son and Father: perfectly united in nature, yet readily identifiable as two persons.
Philippians 2:5-11 gives a beautiful picture of the work Jesus accomplished while on earth, also showing a great deal of the relationship between Son and Father: "Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death -- even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Every step that the Lord Jesus took to become a man, and every step He took as a man was a step of willing, humble obedience to His Father's will, since it was likewise His own will.
Understanding that He was "in very nature God" helps us to understand how greatly He humbled Himself to become a human being. As if it were not enough to take on human nature with its frailty, Jesus was born into a family of the poorest people; so poor they could not even offer the usual lamb for the purification offering after His birth. After some years of exile in Egypt, he was brought up in Nazareth, a town of dubious reputation.
When He was thirty years old, He voluntarily left His home and family, such as they were, and became a homeless vagabond preacher, repeatedly suffering abuse, scorn and disbelief at the hands of those whom He had come to save. At last, after a life of self-denial and sacrifice, he was subjected to the ignominious death of crucifixion. As we contemplate each experience in His life, let us remember, this is not just a man, this is God! A hymn says, "Amazing love! How can it be that Thou, my God, shouldst die for me?" Because of His will to humble Himself so completely for us, He is exalted to the highest place, forever worthy of all our Praise and Worship.
"Christ in you, the hope of glory." (Colossians 1:27) It is indeed overwhelming to think that this one who is our God, having once taken upon Himself the limitations of human flesh, would choose to do so again and again as He dwells in the believers, yet that is exactly what He does! The scripture gives many pictures of the work He will do as He walks in His people in every generation, including our own. "(God) made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions -- it is by grace you have been saved.
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus." (Ephesians 2:5-6) He takes us in all our deadness and gives us divine, eternal life. He gives us access to the fellowship of heaven. "I pray ... that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe.
That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms." (Ephesians 1:18-20) He shares with us the same power by which death was conquered forever in the resurrection! "We are heirs -- heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ." (Romans 8:17) He makes us joint heirs with Himself, sharing with Him in all the richness of the provision of His eternal kingdom. "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world... I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them." (John 17:24-26)
Jesus shares with us the special love between Him and His Father, making us partakers in the same intimate relationship that they have enjoyed from eternity No mere man, no angel could ever do for us what our Lord Jesus has done. The more we learn of who He is and how great His power is on our behalf, the more we bow in humble adoration and marvel at what He has done and is doing for us!
John W.
~~ John Wegter (ex-worker ) wrote: I heard a fairly young -- but already quite influential -- sister worker speak a message at a large convention in 2009 something that I considered to be quite in error in doctrine, regarding the nature of the Lord Jesus, in which she over-emphasized His humanity, very much at the expense of His divinity. I was quite distressed with the message, and not knowing this particular lady personally at all, had no idea if it's something she preaches all the time, or if she just happened to be misunderstood in her emphasis in that particular meeting.
Whatever the case, in the very next meeting, two individuals -- an older lady in testimony and the brother worker who had the longest part in the meeting -- both made some very explicit statements, not mentioning her or her message, but making it clear that our Lord was both fully human AND fully divine, and presenting sound teaching to back up their points.
I hope someone who knew her well (and I wouldn't be surprised that the brother worker did so, knowing his approach) helped her see the error of teaching one side without presenting the other. I was grateful for the sake of everyone present that a more complete message was presented, because otherwise it would have been a very discordant and lopsided impression given of our Savior.
~~ an ex-2x2 wrote in 8/3/2017 on TMB
"I have an e-mail from Barb H. when I was writing back and forth to her and she put in writing that yes what I was revealed on my own through the holy spirit she also agrees with on the topic of who God is. One God who consists of 3 individual entities the father, the son, the holy spirit. She told me many friends don't get it but to not stop worshiping in spirit and in truth. I couldn't sit around the emblems with a people who worship Jesus, yet claim that he isn't God and we know that our Bible tells us to only worship one God so it contradicted itself when everyone was worshiping Jesus. They didn't get it and they didn't put Jesus in his fullness. Doctrine is not sound and it was so saddening to me.
~~ NathanB: There are friends and workers who believe just like Barb H. (She and I was on the same staff of workers in Oregon. She was a Hutterite) wrote to you, but we are in the minority now... However, hopefully this will change in the near future, it will take time to get rid of this false teaching, the roots have been sowed/planted/preached in the minds of the workers and friends for over 50 years, that the Trinity is heresy and the devil's or pagan doctrines.... Jesus is NOT God, off course He is NOT God the Father but the Son.
Both the Father, Christ/Son and Holy Spirit= Godhead.... That was one of the reasons the 1st and 2nd century apostolic fathers came up with the word Trinity or Triune God to describe it beautifully of the Godhead.
You are correct, MOST of the friends and workers are NOT thinking straight! How can you pray, singing redemption songs, and give thanks to Jesus Christ, who paid the Ultimate sacrifice on the Calvary's Cross for our sins and put him on the same level as God the Father... and NOT believing him God/supreme being like His heavenly Father, who is also God.
Jesus Christ even said he is the Almighty God in Rev. 1:8 but they still say there is ONLY ONE God that is the Father! and they worship ONLY God the Father but NOT the Son.
Dec 14, 2019 Gill said: If I understand correctly, the first workers to leave Ireland/England/Scotland etc. were mostly trinitarian. When did this change? Was there a desire to be different from the world and they saw this anti-trinitarian stance as a way to be different? Did Eldon Tenniswood move the west coast towards a more anti-trinitarian position?
RossB wrote: It's clear from the early hymns (in their Go Preachers' Hymnbook) that the early workers believed in a triune God. If you track this through to 1951 (Hymns Old and New update) they clearly still believed in a triune God.
This seemed to change with Eldon Tenniswood and co between the 1951 and 1987 hymnbook when clearly different doctrine (and in my view false doctrine) set in amongst the senior workers. In this period, the power base for the 2x2's shifted from England to the US - hence the latest and current hymnbook was produced in CA.
The tombstone of Sam Jones, the most prolific hymnwriter in the 2x2's refers to the line in one of his hymns "....the God who died for me". Clearly, a belief that the Son was God.
Edward Cooney was clearly not anti-trinitarian. He would have hardly agreed to the inclusion of the following verse of the hymn (#71) "Our blest redeemer, ere he breathed..." in the Go-Preachers hymnbook if he didn't believe in a triune God.
Likewise, the hymn "When I survey the wondrous cross..." refers to Christ my God - in the Go Preachers hymnbook (and the 1951 O&N but subsequently changed in 1987).
Furthermore, in 1952, just eight years before he died, Edward Cooney wrote "now will conclude by greeting all who desire to be children of God in the conceit of our hearts saying: "I am of Christ," for Jesus never said "I am of Christ," but claimed to be the Son of God. He always claimed that God was his Father; and that although he was the mighty God, his Father was mightier and greater than he." (my emphasis added in bold). Source: Patricia Roberts' book Selected Letters Hymns and Poems of Edward Cooney 1867-1960
Edward Cooney is clearly not going to write very specific words about Jesus being mighty God, if he did not believe it. Based on his writings, he was very clear in what he believed. A strong theme through his writings is that redemption/atonement for our sins is only available through Christ's blood that was shed on Calvary and eternal life through His resurrection.
NathanB wrote: Amen, Ross! what most of the current workers and friends don't UNDERSTAND is, the Sunday Morning meetings coming together is to WORSHIP the Godhead/TRINITY or the Triune God= Father, Christ and Holy Spirit.
When the early days workers set up the Sunday morning meetings for themselves and the friends in 1903, most of them were Trinitarians believers. So, how can they PREACH anti-Trinity. Anti Christ is NOT God doctrine when the current workers and friends still KEEP the TRINITY or TRIUNE Sunday morning WORSHIP gathering from the early days workers?
1) Moline wrote: Hi Nathan, We as earthly beings find this difficult to comprehend however the bible makes it clear. I have never have heard a worker handle the Deity of Christ well, yet in the early days of the movement, Eddie Cooney and William Irvine clearly believed in a Triune God. It seems that over the years, one would assume, because of a LACK of sound doctrinal teaching, many basics of the scripture are NOT well understood by the Current 2x2s leaderships and the friends.
2) Nathan1 wrote: I believe Moline is correct! the workers in 1950 and onwards because of their LACK of understanding on the SOUND doctrine of the TRINITY and they lead the friends off the tracks with their Anti-Trinity doctrine, and began to excommunicate workers in 1970s in Montana and 1990s in Alaska that preached and believed in the Trinity belief. WE CAN SEE it clearly as day!
The current 2x2s are caught in predicament situation! MOST of them are Anti-TRINITY believers but they STILL LOVE and appreciate their TRINITY Sunday morning WORSHIP meetings around the WORLD. This has proven to me the current workers and the friends WENT off the tracks in 1950s because of THEIR LACK of UNDERSTANDING on the TRUE teaching of the TRINITY Godhead. They don't FULLY KNOW WHO CHRIST is or Jesus really is.
1/2018 Gill said: Was there an effort to remove trinitarian hymns from the book? And possibly a chance to add more hymns. There were some trinity hymns from the 1951 book that were removed in 1987. Cease not to praise Him, the Father and Son. And Holy Spirit and THESE THREE ARE ONE...remember that hymn??
Nathan1: Yes, After the hymn book was published in 1987, the overseers had excommunicated Truitt O. in Alaska 1990 and before that 1970 in Montana from the work. Truitt, his brother, Walter and John Starkweather the overseers in Montana for preaching Jesus is God.
www.tellingthetruth.info/history_divisions/montana.php
Corrections of references to Jesus being God:
"When I Survey the Wondrous Cross" by Isaac Watts
"Forbid it Lord, that I should boast,
Was No. 15 - "Save in the CROSS of Christ MY LORD"
Now No. 6 - "Save in the DEATH of Christ MY GOD."
(Gal. 6:14: "But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus."
NOTE: The Go-Preacher, 1928 and 1935 editions contained "Christ my God." It was changed in the 1951 and 1987 editions to "Christ my Lord."
Deletions of reference to the Trinity:
Removed No. 239, a beautiful, favorite hymn titled "Cease Not" by worker James Fawcett.
Original and earlier edition of HO&N has an extra verse (#6), which is omitted in the 1987 edition:
"O Praise the Father, Praise the Son,
Blest Spirit, praise to Thee;
All praise to God, the Three in One,
The one in Three."
[Redemption Songs contains this hymn as No. 539]
Removed Hymn No. 259 of 1935 edition which started out with:
"Hearken to the earnest pleadings of the Holy Trinity
"Who will go for us" with tidings of sweet rest and liberty?"
NOTE: There is still one hymn in HO&N that alludes that Jesus "God."
"Come Follow Me," No. 82.
Verse 1: "I hear my dying Savior savior say: Follow me! Come follow me!"
Verse 3: "In all thy changeful life I'll be Thy God and Giide o'er land and sea."
Hymn No. 359 from 1935 Hymnbook was not included in the succeeding 1951 edition (author unknown)
Verse 1: "Hearken to the earnest pleadings of the Holy Trinity
"Who will go for us" with tidings of sweet rest and liberty?
Souls are perishing by the millions with no ray of hope to cheer,
"Who will go for us," and tell them of the One to serve and fear.
www.tellingthetruth.info/hymns/hymn1987.php#changes
~~ SharonW. wrote in 2018:
You're absolutely right, Nathan! Jesus, God the Son is such an awesome Almighty One! It still amazes me to think I'd gone nearly 60 yrs. reading the bible very faithfully and NEVER got that for myself! Strange that, eh? I pray for those in the fellowship still, that they can come to that maturity of understanding about our Beloved Lord! I think that they are missing something totally OUT OF THIS WORLD! Simply because the majority of them have LITTLE idea about who Jesus really is! O What A Savior! I had hardly ever heard of the concept except in a table discussion back when I was about 4 or 5 yrs. old. A number of workers and our family sharing a meal together.
My Gram having been raised a Baptist, knew what the Trinity concept was. It was brought into discussion and the older workers exclaimed that the doctrine was a heresy! I never heard of the concept again until coming on TMB. Nathan wrote an extensive explanation with scripture backing of what the Trinity means and is...it was almost beyond my comprehension!
I became troubled that this was beyond my comprehension so much so, that I prayed to God that "IF HE thought it necessary for me to understand the Trinity, then would HE PLEASE reveal it to me." I left it there and after some time, it begin to come to me at another time of prayer like a light from heaven! The joy of that understanding of my Lord is beyond another imagination, comprehension.... YES! God revealed it to me! Jesus is the most wonderful awesome King of Kings and Lord of Lords and HE died for me! Hallelujah! And I was professing when this happened!
I believed in the Trinity while I was still professing! After I'd studied Jesus Christ for about 3 years and had some long arguments with Nathan and Stanne here on TMB with Scott sometimes putting a bit of information in the kettle, I had to realize that all that Nathan and Stanne were saying about the Trinity was definitely in the bible even thought the word "Trinity" wasn't!
As time passed and more realization of what the Trinity was all about, and I'll say we that do believe are always gaining more insight into it as we go on and maturity of using the word of God (the bible) feeding on the "meat of the word" that it is certainly like most of mankind throughout the ages that as each generation lives and dies the more understanding of the heavenly God has come into the minds of that generation.
So I feel that ignorance and misunderstanding is what's keeping most in the 2x2 from accepting or knowing the Trinity= Triune God concept!
9/8/21 Ram/Mountain wrote: Reborn, instead of indulging in another bout of over-piety, how about explaining how a single God made up of three separate persons becomes a single man made up of a single person which is his image?
If God is three persons then his image must be three persons as well. Look in the mirror. Do you see one Reborn or three? Jesus is the 'express' image of God. He was a man and still is a man. One man, not three! Think, think, think, rather than genuflecting for answers that agree with you.
~~ Reborn wrote: I put the time in to pray about it, so I am perfectly content with the answer God gave me. Seek truth!
Here is some truth- Fixit/2x2 church elder has his own little AGENDA of OFF-ing people that are his true brothers or sisters in Christ by judging they have incorrect dogma. Speak/2x2 elder stands by and says nothing of the murderous spiritual intent there. No true brothers there.
This has run parallel in this post pretty much the entire time. I brought it up yesterday because he would like to dispose of those whom he disagrees with. Here in the US this has happened to some, and quite frankly it is ugly. Thankful that my God will not let me go.
God has spoken his truth to me, about who he is. Why are you so hyper- focused on this? I suspect that God has been trying to teach you for quite a while, but your own stubbornness and lack of humility is keeping you back.
I have lived enough life to know that you would be hard pressed to find any 2 people who agreed on 100 percent of all there is to know! I do not believe that this is what Nathan1 is referring to. I will state here that Nathan1 and I both have been taught of Gods concerning our Godhead beliefs. My own Father is an elder meeting in his home, and believes the same. Many currently on this board, and others who used to post, believe the same concerning the Godhead
Fixits own ways are his own judge. He admitted it himself, and said that he SHOULD be doing something more practical. As an elder's daughter, I do not respect his behavior here at all. He wastes so much time in here actually PROVOKING fights. So sad!
Nathan to Ram/Mountain wrote.... When God the Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit look in the mirror HOW many image do you see? 1 or 3. The scriptures said 3. Who should we believe Jesus words and the scriptures or you, Ram?
I John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one in agree.
John 14:15-20 If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me.
1) nathan said: The early days workers were right to get back to basics which you 2x2 elder and most of the current workers and friends are off the tracks! "Vain Creeds of men"= Anti-Trinity/Triune God; Jesus is NOT God; We worship ONLY God the Father; the Holy Spirit is NOT God.
2) Fixit 2x2 elder: Which creed do most of the current workers and friends follow? It's you who has abandoned the 2x2 faith and followed your own ideas.
Nathan: Many of the Current workers and the friends follow Arius the RCC monk, heretic which he believed Anti-Trinity; and Jesus is NOT God doctrine back in the 4th Century.
Arianism is a heresy named for Arius, a priest and false teacher in the early fourth century AD in Alexandria, Egypt. One of the earliest and probably the most important item of debate among early Christians was the subject of Christ’s deity. Was Jesus truly God in the flesh, or was Jesus a created being? Was Jesus God or not? Arius denied the deity of the Son of God, holding that Jesus was created by God as the first act of creation and that the nature of Christ was anomoios (“unlike”) that of God the Father. Arianism, then, is the view that Jesus is a finite created being with some divine attributes, but He is not eternal and not divine in and of Himself.
Arianism misunderstands biblical references to Jesus’ being tired (John 4:6) and not knowing the date of His return (Matthew 24:36). It may be difficult to understand how God could be tired or not know something, but these verses speak of Jesus’ human nature. Jesus is fully God, but He is also fully human. The Son of God did not become a human being until a specific point of time we call the Incarnation. Therefore, Jesus’ limitations as a human being have no impact on His divine nature or His eternality.
A second major misinterpretation in Arianism concerns the meaning of firstborn as applied to Christ. Romans 8:29 speaks of Christ as “the firstborn among many brothers and sisters” (see also Colossians 1:15–20). Arians understand firstborn in these verses to mean that the Son of God was “created” as the first act of creation. This is not the case.
Jesus Himself proclaimed His self-existence and eternality (John 8:58; 10:30). In Bible times, the firstborn son of a family was held in great honor (Genesis 49:3; Exodus 11:5; 34:19; Numbers 3:40; Psalm 89:27; Jeremiah 31:9). It is in this sense that Jesus is God’s “firstborn.” Jesus is the preeminent Person in God’s plan and the Heir of all things (Hebrews 1:2). Jesus is the “Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6).
After nearly a century of debate at various early church councils, the Christian church officially denounced Arianism as a false doctrine. Since that time, Arianism has never been accepted as a viable doctrine of the Christian faith. Arianism has not died out, however. Arianism has continued through the centuries in varying forms. The Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons of today hold a very Arian-like position on Christ’s nature. Following the example of the early church, we must denounce any and all attacks on the deity of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
www.gotquestions.org/arianism.html
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Post by Nathan1 on Jun 21, 2022 3:36:32 GMT
God the Father is the Creator/Designer of the Universe and of all things, and Christ the Lord God is the Father Co-creator of all things also.
God the Father called to Christ/Son Lord and God. Heb. 1: 8-12 8 But unto the Son he saith, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail."
351 Old Testament Prophecies Fulfilled in Jesus Christ
Prophecy Description Fulfillment
1. Gen 3:15 Seed of a woman (virgin birth) Gal 4:4-5; Matt 1:18
2. Gen 3:15 He will bruise Satan's head Heb 2:14; 1 John 3:8
3. Gen 5:24 The bodily ascension to heaven illustrated Mark 16:19
4. Gen 9:26-27 The God of Shem will be the Son of Shem Luke 3:36
5. Gen 12:3 Seed of Abraham will bless all nations Gal 3:8; Acts 3:25-26
6. Gen 12:7 The Promise made to Abraham's Seed Gal 3:16
7. Gen 14:18 A priest after the order of Melchizedek Heb 6:20
8. Gen 14:18 King of Peace and Righteousness Heb 7:2
9. Gen 14:18 The Last Supper foreshadowed Matt 26:26-29
10. Gen 17:19 Seed of Isaac (Gen 21:12) Rom 9:7
11. Gen 22:8 The Lamb of God promised John 1:29
12. Gen 22:18 As Isaac's seed, will bless all nations Gal 3:16
13. Gen 26:2-5 The Seed of Isaac promised as the Redeemer Heb 11:18
14. Gen 28:12 The Bridge to heaven John 1:51
15. Gen 28:14 The Seed of Jacob Luke 3:34
16. Gen 49:10 The time of His coming Luke 2:1-7; Gal 4:4
17. Gen 49:10 The Seed of Judah Luke 3:33
18. Gen 49:10 Called Shiloh or One Sent John 17:3
19. Gen 49:10 Messiah to come before Judah lost identity John 11:47-52
20. Gen 49:10 Unto Him shall the obedience of the people be John 10:16
21. Ex 3:13-15 The Great "I AM" John 4:26; 8:58
www.newtestamentchristians.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/351-Old-Testament-Prophecies-Fulfilled-in-Jesus-Christ1.pdf
There are 3 that bear records in heaven God the Father, Christ the Word and Holy Spirit. (I John 5:7)
~~ Jesus Christ the I AM that I AM Almighty God.
1) John the apostle wrote it so clearly in John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word WAS God. He was in the World, and the World was MADE by Him, and the world knew him NOT. And the Word was made flesh and dwell among us. The Word was WITH God, and the Word WAS God. Who do you SAY the Word is? Jesus! Read Rev. 19:11-16 And I/John saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
Jesus said in 95 A.D. Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Rev. 11:16-17 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and Worshiped God, saying:
“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
Rev. 21:6,7 He/Christ that sat on the throne said unto me, "It is done, I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end." I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be MY Son."
2) John the apostle wrote in the gospel of John 5:17-18 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
John 10:25-33 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
3) Paul wrote in I Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the Flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, PREACHED to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory.
4) The apostle Thomas said to Jesus after the resurrection, "My Lord and My God" in John 20:24-29. Jesus did NOT say don't call me Lord and God but accepted the title which Thomas called Him.
5) Mary the mother of Jesus said about the unborn Son in Luke 1:46-47 “My soul magnifies the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior."
6) Paul wrote Col. 2:8 For in Him/Christ dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
ALL of the Angels in heaven, millions Saved people, Worship/Singing praises of the Lord God Almighty Jesus, the Lamb of God....
Revelation chapter 4:8-11 “Holy, Holy, Holy
is the Lord God Almighty,
who was, and is, and is to come.”
Revelation chapter 5:9-13 And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and has Redeemed us to God by thy BLOOD, out of every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.”
Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they were saying: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!” Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb, be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”
John 8:58 Is Jesus claiming to be eternal or just pre-existent?
Jesus said to the Jews, "I will tell you the truth.... Before Abraham was born, I am!" some misunderstanding this verse to mean that Jesus was just claiming preexistence before Abraham. The context, however, shows that Jesus was pointing not only to his preexistence before Abraham but also to His Eternally! After all, the term I am! points back to God's name in Exodus 3:14 a name that conveys the idea of Eternal self-existence. Yahweh (the I AM that I AM) never came into being at a point in time, for He has always existed. To know Yahweh is to know the Eternal one.
In other words, Abraham's existence was created and finite, beginning at a point in time, but Christ's existence NEVER began, is uncreated and infinite, and is therefore ETERNAL. God the Father, Christ/the Son are distinct Persons within the unity of the ONE God. (John 3:16,17; 7:29; 8:55; 10:15;11:41,42) God is a spirit (John 4:24), and a spirit does not have flesh and bones. (Luke 24:39).
John's Gospel makes it clear that Jesus' mission was to reveal the Father to mankind: "No man has ever seen God (the Father) but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known." (John 1:18)/ That's why Jesus could say that when a man looks at Jesus, "he sees the one (the Father) who sent me" (John 12:45). And that's why Jesus could affirm, "Whosoever accepts me accepts Him (the Father) who sent me" (John 13:20).
To make the point again in his conversation, “Before Abraham was “I Am” (Jn. 8:58). He is saying “Yahweh is my name.” He is not saying that he existed from or before Abrahams time. Jesus has made a definitive statement that before Abraham came into existence or was born He (Jesus) was there I have existed before all ages, before anything was created. It speaks of an eternal existence without respect to time of which only God can exist. Psalm 90:2: "From everlasting to everlasting thou art God."
We can only come to the conclusion that the “I AM” statements of Jesus were intentional, communicating what they were familiar with from Old Testament teachings and practices to prove the deity of Jesus the Christ to those who could hear his spiritual speech.
I AM is his name forever (Heb. Hayah ashur hayah, Gr. ego eimei; Exod. 3:14-15 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." 'The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.”
Apostolic Fathers' or the 2nd Century onward apostles Writings
Clement of Rome 1st century. He may well have been a companion of both Peter and Paul (Phil. 4:3). On the behalf of the church in Rome, he wrote a letter to the Corinthian church, in aid the church leaders who had been ousted by a minority faction.
Ignatius (A.D. 35-107) A personal disciple of one or more apostles. He was executed in Rome A.D. 107. On his way to Rome as a prisoner, Ignatius wrote letters to several churches; these letters give considerable insight into the structure and beliefs of the churches in Asia Minor (Turkey) at the close of the apostolic age.
Papias (A.D.60-130) A disciple of John the apostle and a friend of Polycarp. He was a Bishop (pastor) of Hierapolis in Asia Minor (Turkey today). His testimony concerning the Gospels of Matthew and Mark has been invaluable to the church.
Polycarp (A.D. 69-156) Another disciple of John apostle. He was faithful bishop (pastor) of Smyrna. He was arrested in his old age and was burned to death.
Justin Martyr (A.D. 160) When the disciples had seen Jesus ascending into heaven, and had believed, and received the Power, He sent upon them from heaven, they went to Every race of men. And, they taught these things and were called apostles. These Twelve disciples went forth throughout the known parts of the world, and continued to show His greatness with all modesty and uprightness.
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195) Christ is said to have baptized Peter alone and Peter baptized Andrew; Andrew and, John. The two of them baptized James and the rest. To James the Just. John, and Peter, the Lord imparted knowledge after His resurrection. These imparted it to the rest of the apostles. And the rest of the apostles imparted it to the "Seventy" (in Luke 10:1-2), of whom Barnabas was one.
Tertullian (A.D. 197) As their Divine Master commanded them, "When He, the Spirit of Truth will come, He will lead you into ALL truth." You have the work of the apostles also predicted: How beautiful are the feet of those who Preach the gospel of peace, which bring glad tidings of good NOT of war, nor evil tidings (Isa. 52:7). In response to which is the (Psalm 19:5) "Their voice is gone through all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world." We see the voice of the apostles have gone forth into all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. His disciples, also spreading over the world, did as their Master commanded them.
Origin (A.D. 245) On this account, the apostles LEFT Israel and accomplished that which had been commanded them by the Savior: "Make disciples of ALL the nations." It was by the help of a Divine power that these men taught Christianity, and succeeded in leading others to embrace the Word of God. For it was NOT any power of theirs speaking. At the request of their Master and God, the disciples scattered over the world and gave forth his teachings for Salvation.
Lactantius (A.D. 304-313) At this time after the ascension, his apostles were 11 in number. To them was added Matthias, in the place of the traitor Judas Iscariot. And, afterward Paul was added. Then they were dispersed throughout ALL the earth to Preach the gospel of the Lord, as their Master had commanded them. For the next 25 years (until the beginning of the reign of Emperor Nero), they busied themselves in laying the foundations of the churches in every province and city.
Most of the apostles in the second century had a clear understanding of the Godhead/Triune God.
Clement of Alexandrea (Died about A.D. 215) taught the Triune God saying, "The Word itself, that is, the Son of God, being by equality of substance, one with the Father, is and Uncreated. And I understand else nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third, is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made."
Tertullian (Died about A.D. 230) Also taught Triune God saying, "I ask you how it is possible that a Being who is merely and absolutely One in singular, to speak in plural phrase, saying, "Let US make man in OUR own image, and after Our likeness" ... it was because He already had His Son close at His side, as a Second Person, His own Word, and a third Person also, the Spirit in the Word, that He purposely adopted the plural phrase.
Origin (A.D. 185-254) The most learned man of the ancient church. A great traveler; and a voluminous writer, employing at times as many as twenty copyists. He died in Palestine, where he died as a result of imprisonment and torture under Deices Emperor. Also taught Triune God saying, "For who else was He which is to come than Christ?
And as no one ought to be offended, seeing God is the Father, that the Savior is also God; So also, since the Father is called Omnipotent, no one ought to be offended that the Son of God is also called Omnipotent. From all, which we learn that the person of the Holy Spirit was of such authority and dignity, that saving baptism was not complete except by the authority of the most excellent Trinity of them all by the naming of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. "
This is the doctrine and teaching of the TRINITY....
The concept of the Triune God is taught in the Old and New Testament. In the 2nd century the second generation of the apostles/church fathers COINED the word or came up with a beautiful description word "Trinity" to describe the Triune God in the Bible.
The 2nd century apostles....
From A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David W. Bercot
Hippolytus (205 A.D.) "Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." By this, He showed that whoever omits any one of them, fails in glorifying God perfectly. For it is through the TRINITY that the Father is glorified. For the Father willed, the Son did, and the Spirit manifested.
It is the Father who commands, and the Son who obeys, and the Holy Spirit who give understanding. The Father is above ALL, the Son is through ALL, and the Holy Spirit is in ALL. Paul the apostle explains that there is the exact same order within the TRINITY, saying, "I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." (I Cor. 11:3). So the Father has authority over the Son. The Son is sent by the Father; the Son does the will of the Father; and the Son sits at the Father's right hand. This hierarchy of order can not be reversed. Yet this hierarchy of order in no way diminishes the Son's divinity.
Tertullian (212 A.D.) For the very church itself is properly and principally the Spirit Himself, in whom is the TRINITY of the One Divinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Cyprian (250 A.D.) Observing the third, sixth, and nineth month for a sacrament of the TRINITY, which was to be manifested in the last times. For the first hour in its progress to the third declared the completed number of the TRINITY. The TRINITY names of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. We are NOT ignorant that there is ONE God; and One Christ, the Lord; and One Holy Spirit. Jesus said, "Go therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit." He suggested that TRINITY, in whose sacrament the nations were to be baptized.
Origin (225 A.D.) Saving baptism was NOT complete except by the authority of the most excellent TRINITY of them all. That is, it is made complete by naming the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In this, we join the name of the Holy Spirit to the Unbegotten God (the Father) and to His Only-begotten Son.
Question: "What is the meaning of ‘Everlasting Father’ in Isaiah 9:6?"
Answer: “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6, ESV).
In context, this verse is proclaiming the redemption of Israel and the activities, titles, and blessings of the Messiah who is to rule the earth and usher in a reign of blessing and peace that will have no end. One of His titles is “Everlasting Father.”
The Hebrew phrase translated “Everlasting Father” could be translated literally “Father of Eternity.” For this reason, some have suggested that the title means that this coming Messiah is also the creator of everything: He is the father of time and eternity, the “architect of the ages.” While we know this to be true from the New Testament (John 1:1–3, Colossians 1:16–17), that is not the emphasis in Isaiah. In the Hebrew construction of the phrase, father is the primary noun, and everlasting (ESV, NIV, KJV) or eternal (NASB) is the term that describes His fatherhood. He is Father forever.
The Hebrew word translated “everlasting” has the idea of “in perpetuity” or “without end.” Indeed, the next verse says of the Messiah, “Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end” (Isaiah 9:7). The emphasis is forward looking, so “everlasting” is probably a better translation than “eternal,” which not only indicates “without end” but also “without beginning.”
(Again, from the New Testament we may argue that the Messiah is without beginning, but that is not the emphasis of this term in Isaiah.)
In ancient times, the “father of the nation” was viewed in much the same way as the father of a family. It was the father who was to protect and provide for his children. In the same way, this Child to be born will become a king who will be a father to the children of Israel—He will protect and provide for them. And His role as protector and provider will not be limited by aging or death.
His role as father (protector and provider) will continue in perpetuity. Just how this will come about is not revealed in Isaiah’s prophecy. The full identity of the Messiah—that He is God in the flesh, the second Person of the Trinity who would protect and provide for His people by His death and resurrection on their behalf; and that Gentiles could also be grafted into the family of Israel—may be hinted at in Isaiah, but God’s people would have to wait almost 700 years to see the Messiah revealed in the “fullness of time” (see Galatians 4:4).
www.gotquestions.org/Everlasting-Father.html
Jesus said in Rev.21:3-7 And I/John heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
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Post by Nathan1 on Jun 21, 2022 3:39:46 GMT
God has played a great role of influence in the past and current history too. Ying and Yang! God Vs. Satan. Both sides want their plans and agenda to fulfill on earth.
Daniel chapter 2. King Nebuchanazzer saw in a dream of a Statue of fine gold, his breasts and arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, and his legs of iron, his feet/10 toes part of iron and clay.
God revealed the interpretation to Daniel:
The head of fine gold=Babylonians kingdom (lasted 70 yrs),
his breasts and two arms= the Persian/Medes (lasted 200 yrs)
The belly and thighs of brass= the Greek/Alexander the great (200 yrs)
The Romans Empire(600 yrs) are the feet of clay mix with iron 10 toes= the 10 toes represent 10 kingdoms will arise after the fall of the Romans Empire (the Roman Catholic Church, the Mohamedans, Turkist, the Germans, the French, the Protestant reformation, the English, the Americans, the Russians and China) will rise and fall before Jesus returns as King of kings of Lord to reign on the earth.
Many nations will rise and fall but Christ's kingdom, which he started 2000 yrs ago will continue on forever.... Satan seeks to destroy it but he can't.
Daniel 2: 34-35 34 Thou sawest till that a stone/Christ the Rock was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. During the time of the Roman Emperor Mark 1:15 Jesus said, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
The Pilgrim Church book by E.H. Broadbent: Read chapter V the history of God/Jesus Truth and Way apostolic ministry and fellowship 1800 yrs history.
www.gutenberg.net.au/ebooks10/1000351h.html
~~ Scripture states that the fourth kingdom ROME was divided into ten kingdoms/10 toes (Roman Catholic Church, Mohamdeans, Turkists, Germans, French, Spain, English, Americans, Russia, China?). The Roman empire did not fall with one event. Many factors contributed to the fall of the Roman empire over a long period of time.
www.thewordonendtimes.com/timeline/roman-empire-divided-ten-kings-arise/
Seventh-day Adventist view[edit]
Seventh-day Adventists believe that the lady of Babylon represents the fallen state of traditional Christianity, especially in the Catholic Church. Other churches (50,000 plus predominantly Protestant) are generally considered either part of the harlot or her daughters.
Adventists further hold that the persecution of the "saints" in Revelation 17:6 represents the persecution of believers who rejected the doctrines introduced by the Roman Catholic Church and were based on pagan Roman beliefs. The Persecution during the Middle Ages of anyone who opposed the Catholic Church, especially by the Inquisition, and the persecution of the Waldensians and the Huguenots are cited as examples.[46]
Seventh-day Adventists interpret Revelation 17:18 as a prophecy of the false church, which has power over the kings of the earth. They consider the pope to be in apostasy for allowing pagan rituals, beliefs and ceremonies to come into the church. They consider the Papacy, as a continuation of the Roman Empire, as a fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 2:7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way."[citation needed]
Ellen G. White's The Great Controversy (1858) states that "Spiritual Babylon" would have worldwide influence, affecting "all nations", that Imperial Roman Empire could not meet the criteria, as she wrote that it only had influence in the Old World. Like many reformation-era Protestant leaders, her writings also describe the Catholic Church as a fallen church, and it plays a nefarious eschatological role as the antagonist against God's true church and that the pope is the Antichrist.[47][48]
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/lady_of_Babylon
For more than a thousand year, Believing Christians have identified Rome with the Harlot of Revelation 17.
~~ At the end of the 9th Century, "Tergadus, Bishop of Treas", called the Pope antichrist, yea, a Wolf and Rome, Babylon (Martyrs Mirror, 5th English edition. Page 240).
~~ In the 10th Century, Arnulphus, Bishop of Orleans, called the Pope Antichrist, in a full council at Rheims (Peter Allix, The Ecclesiastical History of the Ancient Churches of Piedmont, 1821, Page 229).
~~ In the 11th Century, Berenger of Tours denounced Rome's dogmas and maintained that the Roman Church was the Seed of Satan (George Faber, the History of Ancient Vallense and Albigenses, 1838, Page 159). The Waldensians, throughout their long history, identifies the Pope as the Antichrist. The Waldenses treatise titled the Noble Lesson dated 1100 A.D. state: "Antichrist, the predicted murderer of Saints, hath already appear in his True Character, seated monarchally in the Seven-hilled City."
~~ In 1160 A.D. A Treatise Concerning Antichrist identified the Pope of Rome as the Antichrist. George Faber identifies this as a production of Peter Waldo the Apostle (George Faber, page 379-384).
~~ In 1206, at the conference of Montreal, the Albigenses made the following confession: "That the church of Rome was not the Spouse of Christ, but the Church of confusion, Drunk with the Blood of the Martyrs. That the polity of the Church of Rome was neither Good or Holy, nor Established by Jesus Christ." (Peter Allix, The Ecclesiastical History of the Ancient Churches of Albigenses, 1821 edition, first published in 1692, Page 178).
The Bohemians, a Colony of Waldenses in Bohemia, held the following beliefs, according to the Roman Inquisitor. This Description from the 13th Century: "The first error, saith he, is that the Church of Rome is not the Church of Jesus Christ, but an assembly of Wicked men, and the lady that sits upon the Beast in the Revelation. They declared the Pope to be the head and ringleader of all Errors. (Allix, Ancient Churches of Piedmont, Page 242-259)".
~~ The Lollards of the 14th and 15th Centuries maintained "That the Church of Rome Was Not the Church of Christ, but infidel heathens; and they despised all ecclesiastical laws, together with all the Bishops and Ministers of the Church" (Allix, Ancient Churches of the Aligenses, Page 230).
The Petrobusians Judged the Pope to be the Antichrist (Allix, Ancient Churches of the Albigense, Page 142). Throughout the Reformation era, Rome was considered the Mother of Harlots.
~~ On September 9, 1560, The Apostle Jean Louis Paschale of Calabria, just before he was burned Alive in the presence of Pope Pius IV in Rome, turned to the Pope, and "arraigned him as the Enemy of Christ, the Persecutor of his People, and the Anti-Christ of Scripture, and concluded by summoning him and all his Cardinals to answer for their Cruelties and Murders before the Throne of the Lamb." (J.A. Wylie, History of the Waldenses, 1860, Page 120).
ALL of the Reformation leaders considered the Pope Antichrist, including Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Huss; their successors
~~ in the 16th, 17th, 18th, and 19th Centuries persisted in this. The Bible translator William Tyndale identified the Pope as the Antichrist in his The Practice of Prelates and in the preface to the 1534 edition of his New Testament contained dramatic woodcutting portraying the Scarlet Woman of Revelation 17, plainly identifying the Roman Catholic Church with this Religious Apostate System.
~~ In his work 1893 work titled Union with Rome, Bishop Christopher Wordworth of the Church of England stated the view which prevailed among Protestants at that time "We tremble at the sight, while we read the inscription, Emblazoned in large letter, " Mystery, Babylon the Great " written by John the Apostles in 95 A.D. He was guided by the Holy Spirit of God, on the Forehead of the Church of Rome."
We believe the Roman Catholic Church is the Partial fulfillment of the prophecy in Revelation 17 of a One-World religious Harlot. This is not to say that Revelation 17 is entirely fulfilled by Roman Catholicism. This prophecy will not be completed until the reign of the Antichrist just prior to the Coming of the Lord, and Rome will be joined by a conglomeration of others apostate churches and organizations, the end result, no doubt, of the present Ecumenical movement.
The Roman Catholic Church was infiltrated by the false teachings and unscriptural practices of the Charismatic Movement in the early 1960's. Its influence within Roman Catholicism is growing rapidly. Once this movement became entrenched in the Roman Catholic Church, the Catholic leaders were quick to see that would be to their advantage to encourage these teachings rather than to oppose them. They discovered that they could use the Charismatic doctrines and practices build the Roman Catholic Church by such practices a logical and needed "renewal movement within the Church."
Many people are attracted to the displays of healings, miracles, and others supposed demonstration of Holy Spirit Presence and Power, not realizing that if this were a true ministry of the Holy Spirit it would lead them to a reorganization and repudiation of the false teachings of Roman Catholicism. The Charismatic Movement, both within and outside of the Roman Catholic Church is not a Movement of the Holy Spirit, but a false spirit.
~~ When Billy Graham began his ministry 40 years ago, he recognized Roman Catholicism as a false religion and Warned against it. Then, as Graham's crowds and popularity grew, Warnings about Roman Catholicism Ceased and those who made professions of faith in his crusades were Sent Back into the Roman Catholic Church. Later, Graham accepted Roman Catholics as counselors if they took his prescribed training course. Still later, Roman Catholic priests, bishops, and cardinals were included in the Graham Crusade committees, and finally, Graham called Pope John Paul II one of the World's great evangelists.
During the 1260-year rule of the Papacy, this church sought to be the Only one with access to God's Word. They performed their Masses in a Language the common man did not understand, and zealously destroyed any translation of the Bible that "Peasant " could read. The Roman Catholic Church went about Selling in Blessings and Indulgences, even in (Acts 8: 20) says the gift of God cannot be Purchased with money, and when any one came along and Disagreed with their doctrine, this Church totally forgot that the Only Coercion Christ use as Coercion of Love. The Roman Catholic went far, far beyond that... they formed the Inquisition!
It's estimated that during these 1260 years 50 Millions people were put to Death for "Heresy" by the Catholic Church. For only wanting to read the Scriptures themselves, in their own languages, and believing as Gods' spirit lead, Millions were tortured in dungeons and burned at stake.
This was the "Persecution of the Saints" or the Bride of Christ. Totally blatant Un-Christ like behavior by "Men of God." The Bride of Christ! God is Protecting and Preserving the Bride of Christ until His Son Jesus comes again! (Matthew 24:14) Jesus said "This Gospel of the Kingdom Will be Preached in the Whole World as a testimony to ALL nations, and then Shall the End Come."
Roman Empire Fell A.D 476. But in the Name of Christ, and by the Aid of the Church of Rome, Came to Life Again! Papal Rome ruled the World on Vast extent, and for a longer Time, and with a more Despotic hand, than ever Pagan Rome had done, or any World Power before it. Ministers became Priests. The term "Priest" was not applied to Christian ministers before A.D. 200. It was borrowed from the Jewish system, and from the example of heathen Priesthood. (Leo I 440-461) Prohibited priests from marrying and Celibacy of priests became a law of the Roman Church.
The Papacy is an Italian Institution. It arose on the Ruins of the Roman Empire, in the name of Christ occupying the Throne of the Caesars, a Revile of the Image of the Roman Empire inheriting the Spirit thereof; "The Ghost of the Roman Empire come to Life in the Grab of Christianity." The Popes mostly have been Italians. The Papacy's methods. It brought itself to Power through the Prestige of Rome, and the Name of Christ, and by shrewd Political Alliances, and by Deception, and by Armed Force and Bloodshed has maintained itself in power.
Papal revenues: Through a large part of its history the Papacy, by the sale of ecclesiastical office, and its shameless traffic in Indulgences, has received vast revenues that enable it to maintain, for much of the time the most Luxurious Court in Europe. Personal character of the Popes: some of the Popes have been good men; some of them unspeakably vile, the most of them have been absorbed in the Pursuit of Secular Power.
Papal claims: Yet, in spite of the Characters of the general run of Popes, their methods, and the Secular and Bloody record of the Papacy, these "Holy Fathers" claim that they are the "Vicars of Christ," "Infallible," and that they "hold on this earth the place of Almighty God," and that Obedience to Them is Necessary to Salvation.
humansarefree.com/2013/04/the-dark-secrets-of-vatican.html
Pictures of 7 hills of Rome and the Vatican nearby...
Since the 1st Century BCE, its high priests known as 'Pontiffs' — a hereditary position controlled by a handful of ancient families — claimed the ancient pre-Republic title of Pontifex Maximus after the Roman Emperors assumed themselves as high priest of the state cult of Magna Mater (Cybele).
"Jealously guarding their pagan heritage and right to sacrifice people to their demon gods, the priestly families were banished from Rome more than once along with the closure of the Vatican temple."
"However, during the tumultuous periods in Roman history after the collapse of Rome as the center of the Empire, the pagan high priests assumed the role as community leaders in Rome and during more than one period, openly returned to their pagan practices of child sacrifice, cannibalism and demonic worship as late as 590 to 752, 847 to 872 and even as late as 896, 1057." [Ref. 2]
"Under Pope Innocent VIII, the role of the Inquisition and Inquisitor changed to increase their legal and spiritual authority when dispatching 'heretics'. Around 1483 Tomás de Torquemada was named Inquisidor General of Aragón, Valencia and Catalonia. His torturers and special militia were then blessed with being sworn into the highest sacred order of the Roman Cult — the SS or the Knights of the Sedes Sacrorum.
As a military order of the Roman Catholic Church, the Knights of the Sedes Sacrorum (SS) were bestowed by the legal orders of the Roman Pontiff on behalf of the Mother Church to wage constant Holy Inquisition against all 'heretics', including assassinations, torture and counter-intelligence, to protect the name of the Holy Roman Catholic Church and directly represent the interests of the Holy See as its primary order of Holy Knights — the SS (Sedes Sacrorum or Holy See).
As a spiritual order of the Roman Catholic Church, the SS were bestowed with the extraordinary Roman Catholic grace of being forgiven for all their mortal sins (therefore can go to Heaven) that "unfortunately" must be done in order to observe its temporal orders. In others words, the troops of the Grand Inquisitor Tomás de Torquemada were the first religious military order to be granted "immunity" from Hell by the Pope on account of its acts of torture, terror and evil.
The last open Satanic ritual sacrifices under the Holy Inquisition was in the early 19th Century. By the beginning of the 20th Century, there were less than a few hundred SS soldiers still assigned to the Holy Inquisition.
However, upon the appointment of Fr Heinrich Himmler S.J. in 1929 to the NSDAP in Germany, a new Nazi SS (Knights of the Sedes Sacrorum) Army of several hundred thousand was created by 1939 to wage the single greatest Inquisition ever undertaken by the Roman Cult — with over 18 million innocent people burned alive in ovens in Russia and Poland.
Conclusion
In conclusion, the Vatican is not a place of love and peace, as one might imagine. It is a place of dark rituals and great secrecy. Their purpose is to take away the freedom of our species through indoctrination, fear and control. And because people fear what they don't understand, the influence of the Vatican and the Catholic church is immense — greater than any army, tyrant or government.
They are also the greatest financial power on Earth and they will continue to exercise their influence for as long as the human species will continue to give its power away in exchange for an illusory salvation.
humansarefree.com/2013/04/the-dark-secrets-of-vatican.html
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Post by Nathan1 on Jun 21, 2022 3:42:00 GMT
The following article was found in a Swedish newspaper, written by a reporter who attended a convention for clergymen at Linkopling.
Following Christ's as Itinerant New Testament ministry preacher?
A minister arose and asked to speak. He then said, "Honorable fathers and brothers." I have been asked to speak on the subject of what a minister should be learning from Christ. I will attempt to indicate what Jesus spoke to His disciples and what He taught them. John 12:26 says, "If any man serve me let him follow me." Now as for us ministers, it is impossible for us to follow Christ, because we are bound to the regulations of the church. Our Lord and Savior did not become a public teacher until He was 30 years old, but our ministers are ordained in their youth to lead and teach others. Jesus was never ordained as a clergyman.
He did not want, or have a pulpit, or a place in the temple. If He were now living, He would not be given an opportunity to speak from any pulpit without being ordained. He would not be allowed to speak in any of our church buildings. Jesus spoke as one sent of God, not of people. He did not have church authorization. Yet today we do not honor those who preach in this manner, without being sent or having the consent of the people. We think they are doing a work they have no right to do and we forbid them.
Christ did not wear priestly robes. What we wear is similar to what the heathens wore and the old Egyptian, Chaldese and Roman priests. I also want to draw your attention to the fact that our Savior did not serve an altar, which is also from the heathens. Not at any time did the Lord ask people to build church buildings for worshipping the Almighty, but just the opposite. To the Samaritan woman He said, "Woman believe me, the hour cometh and now is when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him."
The Lord did not use the ringing of church bells, and He did not try to charm the people with church music. He did not use all kinds of instruments as the Salvation Army does. All these things were later inventions as substitutes for empty and spiritless sermons that were given to the people. Then we read on that Jesus said He was greater than the temple, and that the Almighty does not live in temples made with hands, but wants to live in our hearts.
The Lord did not preach written sermons or read His prayers. I probably should not criticize our way of doing, because it is so much easier to use the written prayers. Jesus was not taken up with religious ceremony either. He did not perform the marriage ceremony, nor speak at funerals as we are asked to do. People say He did not baptize anyone. When someone asked Him about burying the dead, He answered, "Follow thou me and let the dead bury the dead." He did not ask to have a funeral service for Himself. Think what a disloyal situation it has become.
We ministers use heathen habits and are teaching people that it is Christ-like, such as the anointing and the baptizing. We who should be free from sorcery. Christ went forth through cities and towns preaching-sometimes on mountaintops, in orchards, in fishing boats, etc., healing the sick and feeding the hungry.
There is not a minister in this whole country that would decide to follow Jesus in this way with Christ as his example. And if he did, he would be putting himself in a place to be ridiculed by everyone. Our Lord left those who would not hear Him, but we cannot leave our congregation when they do not want to hear us. When people sought Him to depart out of their coasts He left (Matt.8: 34), but we have to stay where we have been sent, even though oftentimes people do not wish to hear us. There is no comparison here, only a great opposition.
Jesus did not seek to please people to win their friendship and consent for Himself, because He told the honorable Scribes and Pharisees of Israel they were like whited sepulchers and the King Herod, He called a fox. If Jesus were here now, He would not be chosen to serve as the court chaplain, or as the minister to open Parliament. Now I would like to ask you a question, which of us would dare to say to the rich people, "Woe unto you." as Jesus did? We have to honor kings, obey people instead of God.
We are told to read the prayers, not just before our sermons but also afterwards, and I find myself wondering what Jesus prayed for. He usually went off to pray and taught others to do the same. Those who prayed in public, He judged as hypocrites. Undoubtedly, we have distorted the teachings of Jesus, but still we call ourselves servants of Jesus Christ.
Jesus did not own a pillow for His head, but we have homes with modern conveniences. Our standard of living is similar to the rich Caiapas or Pilate. Our course in life is more like them than the lowly Nazarene. Jesus disapproved of the desire to be rich, and He sent his disciples out without gold or silver. We continue to try for larger congregations and salaries. Jesus and His disciples were kept by free will offerings. The law of our country tells the churches to pay their ministers so we do not have to ask God for our daily bread, the way Jesus taught His disciples.
We teach others that Godliness with contentment is enough, (1 Tim. 6:6), but I'm sorry to say we fail to manifest this. We recite Matt.16: 26 to our congregations, "What shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his soul." Yet we take whatever we can get and give no thought to whether or not it is detrimental to our soul. Jesus said, "If you had faith as a grain of mustard seed nothing would be impossible." Jesus said, "The work that I do can be done by those who believe in Me," but we do not dare to try it without a steady salary, bringing the Lords' message.
We possess none of that strong faith that Jesus had and what He taught. We do boast about it, but in truth we are not followers of Jesus. He was not a liar and not a hypocrite. I believe it is dangerous for us to say that Jesus is our example. On the contrary, it seems that Judas the traitor is our example. When our Lord needed money, He went fishing. Our ministers get it from the mission fund or some place similar when they are in need. Jesus is not our example or pattern anymore - not for our lives or for what we teach. We would find it impossible, indeed, to accept His example and way, and to teach it, because we, as ministers, have bound ourselves with an oath to the god of this world and find it necessary to still the voice of conscience.
When he had finished speaking there was a long silence. The words that had been spoken, were not accepted more, but because the gathering was open to the public and to the press. Then one of the visitors got up and said that he was in accord with what they had been hearing, and felt it was the unadulterated truth, and that it couldn't be otherwise, but he could see that the honorable church fathers could not discuss this any further. However, he felt there is no forsaking as bad as to call Jesus our Lord and not do as He commanded, and that there is no greater deception than to call ourselves Christians, and not follow Christ. He then thanked them for allowing him to speak.
~~ Why are there so MANY churches today? 38,000 denominations. Good Video! to listen.
1) List of approximately 38,000 Christian denominations
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations
2) Names of 5000 denominations
www.philvaz.com/DENOMS.php#T
You might find some interesting books to read more on the Roman Catholic Church history to the present day: 1. A City on Seven Hills by Dave Hunt.
2. A woman Rides the Beasts (chapter 6) by Dave Hunt. 3. The Roman Catholic Church and the Last Days. By Dave Hunt. P.O. Box 7019 Bend, Oregon 97708
Martin Luther, John Calvin, and John Knox got together in Switzerland to try to work out a way to reform the Church but they could NOT agree with each other.
John Calvin, a Frenchman became the leader of the Huguenots and Puritans.
John Knox, a Scotch was appointed by Queen Elizabeth to start the Presbyterian Church in [1560]. They broke away from the Catholic Church to try having something more like it should be the Way of Jesus. They broke away from the Catholic Church bodily BUT NOT in spirit.
They started their church with the same paraphernalia the Catholic had in the infant stage. Church buildings, Property, Names, Robes, Ceremony, Traditions. They should have gone back to Christ's teachings, but they ONLY went back to where the Catholic Church started in the beginning, and followed most of their customs.
Church Year/Established Founder/Where Established
The New Testament Church by Jesus Christ 33 A.D. The Vaudois apostolic ministry founded by Paul 68 A.D. Catholic (Universal) in Rome founded by the bishops 320 A.D.
Orthodox 1054 Schismatic Catholic Bishops Constantinople
Lutheran 1517 Martin Luther Germany
Anabaptist 1521 Nicholas Storch &
Thomas Munzer Germany
Anglican 1534 Henry VIII England
Henry VIII (28 June 1491 – 28 January 1547) was King of England from 21 April 1509 until his death. Henry was the second Tudor monarch, succeeding his father, Henry VII.
Henry is best known for his six marriages and, in particular, his efforts to have his first marriage, to Catherine of Aragon, annulled. His disagreement with the Pope on the question of such an annulment led Henry to initiate the English Reformation, separating the Church of England from papal authority and appointing himself the Supreme Head of the Church of England. Despite his resulting excommunication, Henry remained a believer in core Catholic theological teachings.
Domestically, Henry is known for his radical changes to the English Constitution, ushering in the theory of the divine right of kings to England. Besides asserting the sovereign's supremacy over the Church of England, he greatly expanded royal power during his reign. Charges of treason and heresy were commonly used to quash dissent, and those accused were often executed without a formal trial, by means of bills of attainder. He achieved many of his political aims through the work of his chief ministers, some of whom were banished or executed when they fell out of his favor.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VIII_of_England
Mennonites 1536 Menno Simons Switzerland
Calvinist 1555 John Calvin Switzerland
Presbyterian 1560 John Knox Scotland
Congregational 1582 Robert Brown Holland
Baptist 1609 John Smyth Amsterdam
Dutch Reformed 1628 Michaelis Jones New York
Congregationalist 1648 Pilgrims and Puritans Massachusetts
Quakers 1649 George Fox England
Amish 1693 Jacob Amman France
Freemasons 1717 Masons from four lodges London
Methodist 1739 John & Charles Wesley England
Unitarian 1774 Theophilus Lindey London
Methodist Episcopal 1784 60 Preachers Baltimore, MD
Episcopalian 1789 Samuel Seabury American Colonies
United Brethren 1800 Philip Otterbein & Martin Boehn Maryland
Disciples of Christ 1827 Thomas & Alexander Campbell Kentucky
Mormon 1830 Joseph Smith New York
Methodist Protestant 1830 Methodist United States
Church of Christ 1836 Warren Stone & Alexander Campbell Kentucky
Seventh Day Adventist 1844 Ellen White Washington, NH
Christadelphian (Brethren of Chris)t 1844 John Thomas Richmond, VA
Salvation Army 1865 William Booth London
Holiness movement 1867 Methodist United States
Jehovah's Witnesses 1874 Charles Taze Russell Pennsylvania
Christian Science 1879 Mary Baker Eddy Boston
Faith Mission John Govan 1886
Church of God in Christ 1895 Various churches of God Arkansas
Church of Nazarene c. 1850-1900 Various religious bodies Pilot Point, TX
Pentecostal 1901 Charles F. Parkham Topeka, KS
Assemblies of God 1914 Pentecostalism Hot Springs, AZ
Iglesia ni Christo 1914 Felix Manalo Philippines
Four-square Gospel 1917 Aimee Semple
McPherson Los Angeles, CA
United Church of Christ 1961 Reformed and
Congregationalist Philadelphia, PA
Calvary Chapel 1965 Chuck Smith Costa Mesa, CA
United Methodist 1968 Methodist and United Brethren Dallas, TX
Born-again c. 1970s Various religious bodies United States
Harvest Christian 1972 Greg Laurie Riverside, CA
Non-denominational c. 1990s various United States
In 1985 the number of the Protestants Christians Denominations Surpassed 22,OOO with an average of 5 new ones organized each week according to U.S News magazine in 3/4/91.
There are about 50,000 different Christian denominations in the world added since AD 30. Some groups classify Christianity into 8 meta-groups, namely Roman Catholicism (the largest), Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy and Assyrian Churches, Protestantism, Restorationism, Anglican Communicants, Pentecostal, and others.
Wilson Reid 2x2 worker ex-Overseer
I would like to speak to you about the first eight verses of Revelation 21. You can open your Bibles while I read these verses. We have 1,100 chapters in the Bible, but only two chapters which tell us about things that will happen during the 1000 years reign and after the Judgement Day, and they are written in Revelations 21 and 22.
thetrutharchive.blogspot.com/2021/08/wilson-reid-ede-convention-holland-1955.html
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Post by Nathan1 on Jun 21, 2022 3:44:27 GMT
Why? did God decided to wipe out all mankind with a Great Flood, animals except Noah's Family of 8 people from the face of the earth? Was it a world Wide Flood?
From Wikipedia: Enoch, the seventh generation from Adam, he was considered the author of the Book of Enoch. Enoch was the son of Jared (Genesis 5:19–21), the father of Methuselah, and the great-grandfather of Noah. At 65 years old, he begot Methuselah. The Bible says that Enoch lived 365 years before he was taken by God. The text reads that Enoch "walked with God: and he was no more; for God took him" (Gen 5:21–24), which some Christians interpret as Enoch entering Heaven alive.
The Book of Enoch
www.hiddenbible.com/enoch/online.html
~~ 200 fallen angels had SEX with women of this earth creating the Nephilim= The Giants race to Rule the world
[Chapter 6] 1. And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto
2. them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men
3. and beget us children.' And Semjaza, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not
4. indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations
5. not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' Then sware they all together and bound themselves
6. by mutual imprecations upon it. And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn
7. and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And these are the names of their leaders: Samlazaz, their leader, Araklba, Rameel, Kokablel, Tamlel, Ramlel, Danel, Ezeqeel, Baraqijal, Asael, Armaros, Batarel, Ananel, Zaq1el, Samsapeel, Satarel, Turel, Jomjael, Sariel. These are their chiefs of tens.
[Chapter 7] 1-6 And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. And they became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: Who consumed all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against them and devoured mankind. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones.
Fallen angels result mingled their DNA with women, animals= Hybrid races with birds/Ra, Osirus, Isis and Horus/hawk being... Reptiles/Reptilians, fish/mermaids, Cats/feline
1) Tens god and goddess of Egyptians.... Ra, Osirus, Isis, and their son Horus, the king of Egypt.
2) David Wil | Corey Goode saw Horus/Hawk being in person 2014 : The Antarctic Atlantis
3) Here is Corey Goode life history and backgrounds of the Secret Space program.
[Chapter 8] 1-3 And Azazel taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all coloring tinctures. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways.
Semjaza taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, Armaros the resolving of enchantments, Baraqijal (taught) astrology, Kokabel the constellations, Ezeqeel the knowledge of the clouds, Araqiel the signs of the earth, Shamsiel the signs of the sun, and Sariel the course of the moon. And as men perished, they cried, and their cry went up to heaven . . .
[Chapter 9] 1-11 And then Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel looked down from heaven and saw much blood being shed upon the earth, and all lawlessness being wrought upon the earth. And they said one to another: 'The earth made without inhabitant cries the voice of their cryingst up to the gates of heaven. And now to you, the holy ones of heaven, the souls of men make their suit, saying, "Bring our cause before the Most High.
And they said to the Lord of the ages: 'Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings, and God of the ages, the throne of Thy glory (standeth) unto all the generations of the ages, and Thy name holy and glorious and blessed unto all the ages! Thou hast made all things, and power over all things hast Thou: and all things are naked and open in Thy sight, and Thou seest all things, and nothing can hide itself from Thee.
Thou seest what Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were (preserved) in heaven, which men were striving to learn: And Semjaza, to whom Thou hast given authority to bear rule over his associates. And they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth, and have slept with the women, and have defiled themselves, and revealed to them all kinds of sins. And the women have borne giants, and the whole earth has thereby been filled with blood and unrighteousness.
And now, behold, the souls of those who have died are crying and making their suit to the gates of heaven, and their lamentations have ascended: and cannot cease because of the lawless deeds which are wrought on the earth. And Thou knowest all things before they come to pass, and Thou seest these things and Thou dost suffer them, and Thou dost not say to us what we are to do to them in regard to these.'
[Chapter 10] 1- 16 Then said the Most High, the Holy and Great One spake, and sent Uriel/Angel to the son of Lamech, and said to him: " Go to Noah and tell him in my name "Hide thyself!" and reveal to him the end that is approaching: that the whole earth will be destroyed, and a deluge is about to come upon the whole earth, and will destroy all that is on it. And now instruct him that he may escape and his seed may be preserved for all the generations of the world."
And again the Lord said to Raphael/Angel: " Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may not see light. And on the day of the great judgment he shall be cast into the fire. And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons.
And the whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin.' And to Gabriel said the Lord: 'Proceed against the bastards and the reprobates, and against the children of fornication: and destroy [the children of fornication and] the children of the Watchers from amongst men [and cause them to go forth]: send them one against the other that they may destroy each other in battle: for length of days shall they not have. And no request that they (i.e. their fathers) make of thee shall be granted unto their fathers on their behalf; for they hope to live an eternal life, and that each one of them will live five hundred years.'
And the Lord said unto Michael: 'Go, bind Semjaza and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves with them in all their uncleanness. And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgment and of their consummation, till the judgment that is for ever and ever is consummated.
In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire: and to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined for ever. And whosoever shall be condemned and destroyed will from thenceforth be bound together with them to the end of all generations. And destroy all the spirits of the reprobate and the children of the Watchers, because they have wronged mankind. Destroy all wrong from the face of the earth and let every evil work come to an end: and let the plant of righteousness and truth appear: and it shall prove a blessing; the works of righteousness and truth' shall be planted in truth and joy for evermore.
From the Book of Noah 65:
(1) And in those days, Noah saw the earth had tilted and that its destruction was near. Book of Noah 67 : (1) And in those days, the word of the Lord came to me, and he said to me: “Noah, behold: your lot has come up before me, a lot of love without reproach, a lot of uprightness. (2) And now the angels are making a wooden structure and when the angels come out from that task, I will put my hand on it and keep it safe. And a change shall take place so that the ground may not remain empty.
Book of Parables 54:
(7) And in those days, the punishment of the Lord of Spirits will go out, and the storehouses of the waters which are above the sky and under the earth will be opened. (8) And all the waters will be joined with the waters that are above the sky. The water that is above the sky is male and the water that is under the earth is female.
2) Huge Reservoir of Water Discovered in Space 30 Billion Trillion Miles Away. "... the researchers have found a mass of water vapor that’s at least 140 trillion times that of all the water in the world’s oceans combined, and 100,000 times more massive than the sun."
www.universetoday.com/87669/huge-resevoir-of-water-discovered-in-space-30-billion-trillion-miles-away/#ixzz39STcMiwP
3) Gen 7:11-12 Noah was 600 years old. It was the 17th day of the second month of the year. On that day all of the springs at the bottom of the oceans burst open. God opened the windows of the skies. Rain fell on the earth for 40 days and 40 nights. For 40 days the flood kept coming on the earth. As the waters rose higher, they lifted the ark high above the earth. The waters rose higher and higher on the earth. And the ark floated on the water.
The waters rose on the earth until all of the high mountains under the entire sky were covered. The waters continued to rise until they covered the mountains by more than 20 feet. Every living thing that moved on the earth died. The birds, the livestock and the wild animals died.
All of the creatures that fill the earth also died. And so did every human being. Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in it died. Every living thing on the earth was wiped out. People and animals were destroyed. The creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped out. Everything was destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark were left.
Gen 8:1-4 But God showed concern for Noah. He also showed concern for all of the wild animals and livestock that were with Noah in the ark. So God sent a wind over the earth. And the waters began to go down. The springs at the bottom of the oceans had been closed. The windows of the skies had been closed. And the rain had stopped falling from the sky. The water continued to go down from the earth. At the end of the 150 days the water had gone down. On the 17th day of the seventh month, the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat/Turkey.
~~ In 2010 Noah's Ark founded by the Chinese expedition on Mt. Ararat/Turkey 2010. They entered the Ark and they brought back many proof, pictures, video, the Ark's wood (3:00). God left the Ark on Mt. Ararat intact as an evidence to the world that the flood had taken place so, people couldn't say the flood was a MYTH or it didn't happen.
2010 discovery of Noah Ark on MT. Ararat. Pictures taken inside of the Ark several compartments. Evidences are displayed at the end.
Published on Feb 11, 2011
Chairman of the Ark InSight Foundation Gerrit Aalten: I'm convinced information about the discovery of Noah's Ark will be a big encouragement for mankind's search for God and will encourage as well as strengthen especially those suppressed for their faith. The significance of this find is that for the first time in history the discovery of Noah's Ark is well documented and revealed to the worldwide community. The undeniable amount of solid evidence that the wooden structure found on Mt. Ararat in Eastern-Turkey is the legendary Ark of Noah as estimated by those involved at 99%.
The raiders of Noah's Ark on Mt. Ararat in 2009.
Noah's Ark Ministries International
Exhibit on the search for Noah's Ark at the Noah's Ark theme park in Hong Kong.
In 2004, Media Evangelism founder Andrew Yuen Man-fai and pastor Boaz Li Chi-kwong announced the discovery of parts of Noah's Ark on Mount Ararat. They reported that their team found a large wooden structure at an elevation of 4,200 metres (13,800 ft) during their fourth trip to the mountain.[145]
According to an exhibit at Hong Kong's Noah's Ark theme park, the search team had been exploring Ararat as Noah's Ark Ministries International since 2003.[146] Yuen and Li had no evidence of their claim beyond blurred images, as they said a "mysterious force" disrupted their video footage.[145] In 2005, Media Evangelism released a documentary, The Days of Noah, based on the NAMI expedition.[147]
According to NAMI's website, Turkish mountaineer Ahmet Ertuğrul (nicknamed "Paraşut") submitted a sample of petrified wood to NAMI, which he claimed to have obtained in August 2006 from a second wooden structure, located 4,000 metres (13,000 ft) up Mount Ararat. NAMI claimed that an expedition was sent in February 2007, which found that the 2004 site had collapsed due to an earthquake, and was prevented from examining the 2006 site due to weather conditions.[148] An October 2007 press conference announced that a follow-up mission in August successfully recovered more petrified wood from the site Ertuğrul reported.[148][149]
In a press conference on 25 April 2010, NAMI announced that an October 2009 expedition had excavated and filmed the wood structure discovered by Ertuğrul.[150][151][152][153] Although NAMI's website claimed Ertuğrul discovered the site in August 2006, he stated at the press conference that he learned of it in June 2008.[148][153] The wooden structure reported by Yuen and Li in 2004 was not addressed.[153] According to NAMI, specimens from the site were carbon-dated to 4800 BP.[152][154] Footage of the interior of the structure was released on NAMI's YouTube account.[155] NAMI said that Turkey would submit the location for designation as a World Heritage Site; however, when reached for comment a spokesperson for UNESCO said that the organization had not received such a request.[151]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Searches_for_Noah%27s_Ark
TWO awesome Videos 2009 of the Ark, and 2nd Deck inside of Noah's Ark.
professing.proboards.com/thread/30926/disclaimer-home-page-fair-dinkum?page=4
Legends say China began in a great flood. Scientists just found evidence that the flood was real.
By Sarah Kaplan
August 4, 2016
It is a powerful foundation myth, but many believed that was all it was. Some 4,000 years after the flood was supposed to have happened, historians had found no archaeological evidence of its effect or firsthand accounts of its destruction. There are no historical artifacts from Yu, or the Xia dynasty he founded. All researchers had to go on were stories written long after the fact, dramatized and politicized to justify the ends of those who wrote them.
Until Wu Qinglong, a geologist at Nanjing Normal University, found signs of the flood in the sediments beneath his feet.
In a new paper published Thursday in the journal Science, Wu and his colleagues describe geological evidence for a catastrophic flood on the Yellow River in about 1900 B.C. — right around the time the “Great Flood” was said to have taken place.
"This expands our understanding," said Andrew Sudgen, deputy editor of Science, "not only of civilization’s origins, but also the environment in which ancestral societies emerged."
www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2016/08/04/legends-say-china-began-in-a-great-flood-scientists-just-found-evidence-that-the-flood-was-real/
~~ Nathan1: Here is the Video about Enoch, 200 fallen having SEX with the women of this earth... they produced the Nephilim=Demigods men and women of renown... Here are evidences of the Nephilims SKULLS are found around the world... by Trey Smith! Beautifully done. Over 5 millions viewers!
~~ Pastor Chuck Missler on Gen. 6:1-4 Who are the Sons of God= the fallen angels of God that had Sex with the woman creating the Nephilim- the Giants on the earth to rule the world! One world Order/Satanism.
www.youtube.com/results?search_query=pastor+chuck+missler+on+Genesis+6%3A1-5
~~ Pastor Chuck Missler - Return Of The Nephilim_pictures of UFO's_ Aliens & the Bible. Very good sermon! This Pastor has a great knowledge and understanding on these subjects.
(Mark 1:14,15) Now after that John the Baptist was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, saying, " The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: Repent ye, and believe in the gospel."
Verse 23,24 There was a man in their synagouge a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out, saying, "Let us alone!" what have we to do with you, Jesus of Nazareth? are thou come to destroy us? I know thou art, the Holy One of God." And Jesus rebuked him saying, "Hold thy peace, and come OUT of him." And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him. (Luke 1:34) And Jesus healed many that were sick of different diseases, and cast out many demons; and suffered not the demons to speak, because they KNEW who he was/the Holy One of God.
Luke 3:10-12 For Jesus had healed many, insomuch that they pressed upon him for to touch him, as many as had plagues. And unclean spirits, when they SAW him, fell down before Him, and cried, saying, "Thou art the Son of God." And he straightly charged them that they should NOT make him known.(Luke 4:40,41) Jesus laid his hands on every one of them, and healed them.
And the devils also came out of many, crying out, saying "Thou art the Christ the Son of God." And Jesus rebuked them not allow them to speak for they KNEW he was the Christ. Mark 5:1-12 The Legion saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshiped him. And cried with a loud voice, "What have I to do with thee, Jesus the Son of the most high God? I swear by God, that thou torment me not." Jesus said to legion=Many, "Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit. And Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" and the man answered, " My name is Legion: for WE are MANY."
~~ Apostolic fathers teachings about Demons/Giants: (Genesis 6:4)
There were Giants on the earth in those days, and also AFTERWARD, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore Children to them. Those were mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
~~ Justin Martyr (160 A.D.) The angels transgressed this appointment and were captive by love of women and they begat Children/Giants, who are called DEMONS.
~~ Athenagoras (170 A.D.) These angels, then, who have fallen from heaven, and haunt the air and the earth, and are no longer able to rise to heavenly things, and the souls of the Giants, who are the DEMONS, who wander about the world. Furthermore, certain angels who fell of their own free will, there sprang a more wicked demon brood, condemned of God along with the authors of their race. Their great business is the ruin of mankind. So, from the start, spiritual wickedness sought our destruction. Accordingly, they inflict upon our bodies diseases and other grievous calamities.
~~ Commodianus (248 A.D.) From the seed of the fallen angels and women, Giants are said to have been born. By them, arts were made known in the earth. They taught the dyeing of wool and everything that is done. When they DIED, men erected images to them. Yet, because they were of an evil seed, the Almighty did NOT approve of their being brought back from death when they had died. For that reason, they wander and they now subvert many bodies. And it is these whom the pagans presently worship and pray to as gods.
~~ Lactanius (303-313) The Giants who were born from the relations of angels with women were neither angels nor men, but had a MIXED nature---- were NOT admitted into hades when they died. Similarly, their fallen angels fathers had NOT been admitted into heaven, either. Thus there came to be TWO kinds of demons: One of heaven, the other of the earth. The latter are the wicked spirits, who are the authors of all the EVILS that are done. These wicked spirits were the inventors of astrology, soothsaying, divination, those production that are called oracles, the art of magic.
~~ Origen (225 A.D.) Now, of the wicked spirits, there is a two fold mode of operation. Sometimes they take complete and entire possession of the mind, so as NOT to allow their captives the power of either understanding or feeling. For example, this is the case with those who are commonly called "Possessed" whom we see to be deprived of reason. At other times, these evil forces use their wicked suggestions to deprave a conscious and intelligent souls with thoughts of various kinds---- Persuading it to do evil. Judas is an illustration of this.
The one direct quote in the New Testament is by Jude, a brother of Jesus Christ:
Jude 1:14-15, quoting Enoch 1:9 {2:1} [1] "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches, which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."
While that is the only referenced quotation in the Bible, there are many indirect references which involve striking similarities. But beware, there are some that believe that the book is false, I leave it for you to decide.
What is the Book of Enoch and where did it come from?
Enoch was the grandfather of Noah. The Book of Enoch chapter 68:1 "And after that my grandfather Enoch gave me all the secrets in the book and in the parables which had been given to him, and he put them together for me in the words of the book of the parables." This makes it possible for the Book to have survived the flood as its not too hard to accept that Noah would have taken his Great Grandfathers writings with him onto the ark.
The Book of Enoch was extant centuries before the birth of Christ and yet is considered by many to be more Christian in its theology than Jewish. It was considered scripture by many early Christians. The earliest literature of the so-called "Church Fathers" is filled with references to this mysterious book. The early second century "Epistle of Barnabus" makes much use of the Book of Enoch.
Second and Third Century "Church Fathers" like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origin and Clement of Alexandria all make use of the Book of Enoch. Tertullian (160-230 C.E) even called the Book of Enoch "Holy Scripture". The Ethiopic Church even added the Book of Enoch to its official canon. It was widely known and read the first three centuries after Christ. This and many other books became discredited after the Council of Laodicea. And being under ban of the authorities, afterwards it gradually passed out of circulation.
At about the time of the Protestant Reformation, there came to be a renewed interest in the Book of Enoch which had long since been lost to the modern world. By the late 1400's rumors began to spread that somewhere a copy of the long lost Book of Enoch might still exist.
During this time many books arose claiming to be the long lost book and were later found to be forgeries. The return of the long lost Book of Enoch to the modern western world is credited to the famous explorer James Bruce, who in 1773 returned from six years in Abyssinia with three Ethiopic copies of the lost book. In 1821 Richard Laurence published the first English translation.
The famous R.H. Charles edition was published in 1912. In the following years several portions of the Greek text surfaced. Then with the discovery of cave 4 of the Dead Sea Scrolls, seven fragmentary copies of the Aramaic text were discovered.
The Book of Enoch is divided into five basic parts, but it is the The Book of Parables (37-71) which gives scholars the most trouble for it is primarily concerned with a figure called "the messiah"; "the righteous one"; "the chosen one" and "the son of man."
Chapter 46:1-2, There I beheld the Ancient of days whose head was like white wool, and with him another, whose countenance resembled that of a man. His countenance was full of grace, like that of one of the holy angels. Then I inquired of one of the angels, who went with me, and who showed me every secret thing, concerning this Son of man; who he was; whence he was; and why he accompanied the Ancient of days. He answered and said to me, This is the Son of man, to whom righteousness belongs; with whom righteousness has dwealt; and who will reveal all the treasures of that which is concealed: for the Lord of spirits has chosen him; and his portion has surpassed all before the Lord of spirits in everlasting uprightness."
The opening verses of the Book of Enoch tell us that the revelations in this book were not meant for Enoch's generation, rather a remote generation, and of course the book would make more sense to the generations after Christ.
We know that the early Church made use of the Book of Enoch, but it was then all but lost, until recent times. Perhaps this book was meant for our generation, as it is widely available today after being concealed for over a millennia. (Enoch 1:1-3)
The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. And he took up his parable and said -Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angels showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for this generation, but for a remote one which is for to come.
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Post by Nathan1 on Jun 21, 2022 5:54:20 GMT
Enoch (Book of Enoch):
The Enoch video (released 2012) is a journey 5000 years in the past through the eyes of Enoch, 7th from the Biblical Adam, and great grandfather of Noah. Enoch covers the Fall of the Angels (Watchers), producing Nephilim, Annunaki, and / or the Discovery Channel's Ancient Aliens (Ancient Aliens). Enoch also covers Serpent / Reptilian creature/s.
The Nephilim/Giants or Demigods hybrid races on the earth. Pastor Mike Hoggard Giants ... did they really exist? Ah ...Yea ... and Mike shows you the truth right out of your King James Bible, in this first part of the Giants series.
~~ Book of Enoch/The Nephilim=Children of the Fallen Angels
~~ Baalbek/Beirut Gigantic Megalithic Stone blocks, Land Of The Giants
Top 10 Ancient Secrets (3/10) Baalbek Megaliths
~~ The Chart: Nimrod and the post-Flood Nephilim/Giants according to the Bible
The great pyramid On the Giza Plateau, the largest pyramid ever built, it incorporates about 2.3 million stone blocks, weighing an average of 2.5 to 15 tons each.
"Second Species" Cones heads/Elongated heads" Controls Earth for centuries....
In 1928: 300 Non-Human DNA Elongated Skulls are found in Peru. A DNA analysis of elongated Paracas skulls has shown that they may not be human and that they could come from an entirely new species that fits outside of the known evolutionary tree. This belief stems from a test that showed a DNA sample taken from the skulls turned out to be unlike any known human DNA. The Brain 25% larger, 60% is heavier......
Interview with Brien Foerster:
Unravelling the Genetics of Elongated Human Skulls. The first and initial results of DNA testing of Elongated Human Skulls of Paracas Peru have finally come in, and suggest that these people, who died out 2000 years ago had genetic attributes, to some degree, not found in Homo Sapiens, Neanderthal, or Denisovans. Much more work has to be done to replicate these initial results, but they are intriguing.
Elongated Cone Heads Of Paracas Peru: Facial Reconstruction
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Post by Nathan1 on Jun 21, 2022 5:55:17 GMT
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Post by Nathan1 on Jun 21, 2022 5:57:10 GMT
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